New Posts New Posts RSS Feed: Simple Rule Question
  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Register Register  Login Login

Simple Rule Question

 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <1234 5>
Author
Brass View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more


Joined: 24 Mar 08
Location: Australia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 975
Post Options Post Options   Quote Brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Jan 20 at 12:13pm
Originally posted by Rupert

Epicfail, just when you thought it was simple...

Actually, in real life it is a lot more simple than the post above suggests. You may hear the expression "Water please" from old people like me - I expect Brass will now say how wrong that is!

<g>.

No problem with a hail of 'water'.

Case 54 Answer 4
Unlike rule 20.2(c), rule 20.1 does not require A to use specific words in her hail but, to meet the requirements of the rule, those words must clearly convey that A requires room to tack. The hail must be directed towards B and be as loud as is required in the prevailing conditions to be capable of being heard by B. A hail is primarily an oral signal, but in addition the hailing boat may draw attention to the hail by, for example, physical gestures, a whistle or horn signal, or, at night, light signals. If boats are required to monitor a particular radio channel while racing, the hail may also be made over that channel.
These requirements for hailing apply equally to B if she responds ‘You tack’.
Back to Top
Brass View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more


Joined: 24 Mar 08
Location: Australia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 975
Post Options Post Options   Quote Brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Jan 20 at 12:47pm

Originally posted by Sam.Spoons


I had a very similar situation recently, three boats, Blaze (me) to windward and slightly ahead, and two Lasers to leeward in line abreast, the far leeward Laser tacked without hailing forcing the middle Laser to hail and tack immediately

Then she broke rule 20.2a:  she did not give you time to respond.

 upon which, before completing this tack he hit me on the aft quarter

Then she broke rule 13:  she did not keep clear of you.

and shouted "protest"

Nice of her.

I had not opportunity to respond so replied that I needed time to keep clear.

Avoid contact yes, you had no obligation to keep clear:  she was the give-way boat under rule 13.

Nothing more was said after the race but I'm still not sure if I was right or not. Because we were close it could be that I was in breach of Rule 11 in that the leeward boat made contact when tacking

Best to ignore the 'While Tacking' heading in rule 13 except to remember it by.

The transition occurs when the tacking boat passes head to wind

  • before head to wind, leeward boat is right of way boat (rule 11) changing course and required to give the windward boat room to keep clear (rule 16.1).
  • after head to wind, she is give-way boat (rule 13), the other boat has gained right of way because of the tacking boat's actions and is not required to give room to keep clear under rule 15.
 so I was not 'keeping clear' [def. "keeping clear" (b)  when the boats are overlapped, <span style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif;"> if the right-of-way boat can also change course in both directions without immediately making contact.]</span>

Conceivably, but if she tacked right into you, she either broke rule 16.1 or 13.

I'm not sure if a crash tack fails the definition of changing direction though?

How can tacking not be changing direction?

Also I don't know if he hit me before or after passing head to wind

See above rule 16.1 or 13:  same outcome.

so that may be relevant (before and he was luffing, after he was tacking) he certainly had not completed his tack (sails filling on the new close hauled course).

Sails filling is not relevant:  it's just the relative angle of the hull to the wind.

With hindsight I should have tacked off early to avoid the risk, particularly as the Blaze is not so close winded as a Laser.

But presumably faster?

You're advanced on the Lasers and to windward:  at this stage you are in control, and you are entitled to expect that if they want water at the obstruction they will hail in compliance with rule 20.1.

Again, presumably you are going towards the side you want to go to:  you have no obligation to sacrifice your tactical advantage unless and until there is a hail.

Originally posted by JimC

So three boats overlapped. RRS 11. Leeward (ROW) tacks. On passing head to wind she must keep clear of all others RRS13. Presumably she must have tacked onto starboard, in which case she newly acquired ROW after completing the tack, and RRS15 applied.

 But not until she has reached her close hauled course.
Middle hails. Windward must tack as soon as possible (20.2) or hail back "you tack" immediately.

So, did you tack as soon as possible after being hailed?

No, because he was prevented from doing so by being hit by the middle boat which tacked in breach of rule 20.2a. 

As soon as possible depends on the boat. If you were unable to respond in time then it seems possible middle broke 20.2a

Dead set certain IMHO.  OP evidence "Laser hail[ed] and tack[ed] immediately"

It might be that middle was forced to break 20.2 by leeward breaking RRS15.

Or, IMHO more likely rule 13.



Edited by Brass - 08 Jan 20 at 2:55am
Back to Top
Sam.Spoons View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more


Joined: 07 Mar 12
Location: Manchester UK
Online Status: Online
Posts: 2592
Post Options Post Options   Quote Sam.Spoons Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Jan 20 at 1:05pm
Thanks gents I had just about reached that conclusion.

Blaze, faster but less close winded than a Laser? In F2 there's not much in it TBH.

I would definitely have stayed out of the Lasers way if I hadn't beed defending against another Blaze and trying to catch yet another.....
Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"
Back to Top
JimC View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more
Avatar

Joined: 17 May 04
Location: United Kingdom
Online Status: Online
Posts: 6198
Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Jan 20 at 1:36pm
The other conclusion is that middle was correct in hailing protest when contact occurred, but it was leeward who needed to take a penalty. Of course if Leeward were telling the tale I expect it would all look different!
Back to Top
Sam.Spoons View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more


Joined: 07 Mar 12
Location: Manchester UK
Online Status: Online
Posts: 2592
Post Options Post Options   Quote Sam.Spoons Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Jan 20 at 4:53pm
That begs the question "if I was Leeward how close to Middle can I tack without hailing for room?"

I suspect he will say he had completed his tack and left Middle enough room to tack to avoid, Middle but in practice Middle could not without without hailing Windward (me) to tack first. What would Middle's best course of action be? I would probably have hit Leeward and called protest on rule 15 but would that have been the right thing to do?
Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"
Back to Top
JimC View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more
Avatar

Joined: 17 May 04
Location: United Kingdom
Online Status: Online
Posts: 6198
Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Jan 20 at 5:23pm
The definition of room includes all obligations under Part 2 rules. So if middle needs time to hail windward that's part of the room she's entitled to. Middle's best course of action is whatever she thinks will cause the least damage and protest. In general of course one prefers to hit the guilty party...

Edited by JimC - 07 Jan 20 at 5:24pm
Back to Top
Sam.Spoons View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more


Joined: 07 Mar 12
Location: Manchester UK
Online Status: Online
Posts: 2592
Post Options Post Options   Quote Sam.Spoons Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Jan 20 at 5:48pm
  Thumbs Up 'tis what I thought.
Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"
Back to Top
RS400atC View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more


Joined: 04 Dec 08
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2956
Post Options Post Options   Quote RS400atC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Jan 20 at 9:40pm
Sails filling on the new tack does no currently figure in the rules.
If the first boat to tack gets onto starboard close hauled course, others have to keep clear, end of.
Sounds to me like the Blaze should have tacked as soon as the leeward boatd started to tack, it was only going to end one way? The middle boat is just middle lane flotsam, the onus is on the windward boat to 'keep clear' of the leeward boat.

And with its 1027 PY, the Blaze is clearly in 'in the wrong' if it's bickering with Lasers. Once they drag you into their PY 1099 conflict zone, you've lost.
Back to Top
Brass View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more


Joined: 24 Mar 08
Location: Australia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 975
Post Options Post Options   Quote Brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Jan 20 at 9:52pm
Originally posted by Sam.Spoons

That begs the question "if I was Leeward how close to Middle can I tack without hailing for room?"

If you have space to tack and avoid M in a seamanlike way, you need not hail.  If M than chooses to tack in front of W, that's her look-out.

If, as JimC has assumed, you are tacking from port onto starboard, if you have space to tack, reach a close hauled course then give M room to keep clear of you, you need not hail.

I suspect he will say he had completed his tack and left Middle enough room to tack to avoid,

As JumC said, the room L, gaining right of way, needs to give M includees room for M to comply with her obligations under the rules, which, if M needs to tack and needs room to do so from W, includes room for M to hail W and for W to respond in accordance with rule 20.

 Middle but in practice Middle could not without without hailing Windward (me) to tack first.

Then L needed to give M room to do that as part of her rule 15 obligations, and if she couldn't do that, she damn well should have, herself hailed for room in accordance with rule 20.

 What would Middle's best course of action be? I would probably have hit Leeward and called protest on rule 15 but would that have been the right thing to do?

Ease sheets, pinch and back out of the sandwich. protesting loudly the while?

"take such action as will best aid to avoid collision"?

Once somebody steps outside the rules, every one needs to try to avoid contact and/or minimise damage.
Back to Top
Sam.Spoons View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more


Joined: 07 Mar 12
Location: Manchester UK
Online Status: Online
Posts: 2592
Post Options Post Options   Quote Sam.Spoons Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Jan 20 at 10:54pm
Originally posted by RS400atC

Sails filling on the new tack does no currently figure in the rules.
If the first boat to tack gets onto starboard close hauled course, others have to keep clear, end of.
Sounds to me like the Blaze should have tacked as soon as the leeward boatd started to tack, it was only going to end one way? The middle boat is just middle lane flotsam, the onus is on the windward boat to 'keep clear' of the leeward boat.

And with its 1027 PY, the Blaze is clearly in 'in the wrong' if it's bickering with Lasers. Once they drag you into their PY 1099 conflict zone, you've lost.

I disagree, but only in the sense that M hailing and tacking almost simultaneously did not give W the chance to keep clear, W was under no obligation to anticipate L tacking.

WRT speed differences, in F2-3 sub-planing the Blaze is barely faster than a Laser but I agree that with hindsight I should have stayed out of their way. As I said above I was engaged in a close race with two other Blazes myself and should not be expected to compromise my tactics. But with nearly 70 boats on a small lake you are bound to come into conflict with others.
Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <1234 5>

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Bulletin Board Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 9.665y
Copyright ©2001-2010 Web Wiz
Change your personal settings, or read our privacy policy