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Simple Rule Question

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epicfail View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote epicfail Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Simple Rule Question
    Posted: 06 Jan 20 at 7:57pm
As I understand it the leeward boat has priority, so...

After the start of a race I am the leeward boat of a line of five boats on starboard tack. I need to tack as I am running out of room due to an island in the lake. Do I have to ask for room to tack or just slow and tack behind the boats to windward?

If I ask for room do the other windward boats have to move in turn?



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ColPrice2002 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote ColPrice2002 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Jan 20 at 8:39pm
Hi,
Read Rule 20...

If you are close-hauled, approaching an obstruction and you can't tack and avoid a windward boat, you hail for "room to tack".
The hailed boat must respond.
Either replies "you tack" and then allows you to tack, or it must tack.
Obviously,it can hailthe boat to windward for room to tack (and so on up the fleet).
In this case, hail a bit early, getting several boats to tack takes a few moments...

Colin
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Post Options Post Options   Quote epicfail Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Jan 20 at 9:00pm
That's great, thank you. I'll try to avoid being in that situation but last Sunday I tacked behind and ended up loosing rather a lot. I need to be more assertive!
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Post Options Post Options   Quote ColPrice2002 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Jan 20 at 10:28pm
You're welcome.
The rule applies to an obstruction...
Than means that it could be an island, stand-on sailing boat or similar (see the definition of obstruction).
The one thing it isn't is the committee boat! That is special exclusion.

I learnt this one rule years' ago sailing on the river - also how to tack quickly and sail to inches!

Colin
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Brass View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Jan 20 at 10:42pm
Originally posted by epicfail

That's great, thank you. I'll try to avoid being in that situation but last Sunday I tacked behind and ended up loosing rather a lot. I need to be more assertive!

You need to read the rule carefully and understand that it is not a carte blanche.

Here is the rule

20. ROOM TO TACK AT AN OBSTRUCTION
 
20.1. Hailing
 
A boat may hail for room to tack and avoid a boat on the same tack. However, she shall not hail unless
    1. she is approaching an obstruction and will soon need to make a substantial course change to avoid it safely, and
    2. she is sailing close-hauled or above.
In addition, she shall not hail if the obstruction is a mark and a boat that is fetching it would be required to change course as a result of the hail.
20.2. Responding
 
    1. After a boat hails, she shall give the hailed boat time to respond. 
      ⚞ US45 ⚟
    2. The hailed boat shall respond even if the hail breaks rule 20.1
      ⚞ US19 ⚟
    3. The hailed boat shall respond either by tacking as soon as possible, or by immediately replying "You tack" and then giving the hailing boat room to tack and avoid her.
    4. When the hailed boat responds, the hailing boat shall tack as soon as possible.
    5. From the time a boat hails until she has tacked and avoided the hailed boat, rule 18.2 does not apply between them.
20.3. Passing On a Hail to an Additional Boat
 
When a boat has been hailed for room to tack and she intends to respond by tacking, she may hail another boat on the same tack for room to tack and avoid her. She may hail even if her hail does not meet the conditions of rule 20.1. Rule 20.2 applies between her and the boat she hails.

There area also a number of World Sailing Cases about rule 20 which are quite important.

Remember that the hailed boat can respond by hailing 'you tack'.  This can play out in various ways including that described in these two cases, which you can follow the links and read in full:

Rule 20.2(c), Room to Tack at an Obstruction: Responding
When a boat is hailed for room to tack at an obstruction and replies “You tack,” and the hailing boat is then able to tack and avoid the hailed boat in a seamanlike way, the hailed boat has complied with rule 20.2(c).


Rule 20.2(c), Room to Tack at an Obstruction: Responding
When a boat with right of way is required to give another boat room for a manoeuvre, right of way does not transfer to the boat entitled to room. When, in reply to her call for room to tack when approaching an obstruction, a boat is hailed “You tack”, and when she does so and is then able to tack again to keep clear in a seamanlike way, the other boat has given the room required.

Here are the headnotes from the Case Book for all Cases about Rule 20

Rule 20, Room to Tack at an Obstruction
CASE 3
A leeward port-tack boat, hailing for room to tack when faced with an oncoming starboard-tack boat, an obstruction, is not required to anticipate that the windward boat will fail to comply with her obligation to tack promptly or otherwise provide room.
CASE 10
If a boat hails for room to tack when she is neither approaching an obstruction nor sailing close-hauled or above, she breaks rule 20.1. The hailed boat is required to respond even if the hail breaks rule 20.1.
CASE 11
When boats are overlapped at an obstruction, including an obstruction that is a right-of-way boat, the outside boat must give the inside boat room to pass between her and the obstruction.
CASE 33
When a boat approaching an obstruction hails for room to tack, but does so before the time when she needs to begin the process described in rule 20 to avoid the obstruction safely, she breaks rule 20.1(a). However, even if the hail breaks rule 20.1(a), the hailed boat must respond. An inside overlapped boat is entitled to room between the outside boat and an obstruction under rule 19.2(b) even though she has tacked into the inside overlapping position.
CASE 35
When a boat is hailed for room to tack at an obstruction and replies ‘You tack’, and the hailing boat is then able to tack and avoid the hailed boat in a seamanlike way, the hailed boat has complied with rule 20.2(c).
CASE 54
A boat is entitled to hail for room to tack at the time when she needs to begin the process described in rule 20 to avoid the obstruction safely. A boat that hails must give the hailed boat sufficient time to respond before tacking herself. The hail must clearly convey the hailing boat’s need to tack and be sufficiently loud to be heard in the prevailing conditions. If the hailed boat does not respond, the hailing boat can repeat her hail if time permits, or avoid the obstruction and protest.
CASE 101
When a boat with right of way is required to give another boat room for a manoeuvre, right of way does not transfer to the boat entitled to room. When, in reply to her call for room to tack when approaching an obstruction, a boat is hailed ‘You tack’, and when she does so and is then able to tack again to keep clear in a seamanlike way, the other boat has given the room required.
CASE 113
An explanation of the application of rule 20 when three boats sailing close-hauled on the same tack are approaching an obstruction and the leeward-most boat hails for room to tack, but cannot tack unless both boats to windward of her tack.



Edited by Brass - 06 Jan 20 at 11:03pm
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Rupert View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Rupert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Jan 20 at 7:46am
Epicfail, just when you thought it was simple...

Actually, in real life it is a lot more simple than the post above suggests. You may hear the expression "Water please" from old people like me - I expect Brass will now say how wrong that is!
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zeon View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote zeon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Jan 20 at 8:22am
Lol me too. This is  the first rule I ever learned, when I started sailing  Sailing on a narrow river in Warwick you tend to use it a lot more than on open water 😂😀
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Post Options Post Options   Quote 423zero Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Jan 20 at 9:59am
Room at the mark, most common comment I hear, not from me though, I always avoid confrontation, life's too short, drop in behind or make sure you are first to mark/obstacle.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Sam.Spoons Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Jan 20 at 10:04am

I had a very similar situation recently, three boats, Blaze (me) to windward and slightly ahead, and two Lasers to leeward in line abreast, the far leeward Laser tacked without hailing forcing the middle Laser to hail and tack immediately upon which, before completing this tack he hit me on the aft quarter and shouted "protest". I had not opportunity to respond so replied that I needed time to keep clear. Nothing more was said after the race but I'm still not sure if I was right or not. Because we were close it could be that I was in breach of Rule 11 in that the leeward boat made contact when tacking so I was not 'keeping clear' [def. "keeping clear" (b)  when the boats are overlapped, if the right-of-way boat can also change course in both directions without immediately making contact.] I'm not sure if a crash tack fails the definition of changing direction though?

Also I don't know if he hit me before or after passing head to wind so that may be relevant (before and he was luffing, after he was tacking) he certainly had not completed his tack (sails filling on the new close hauled course).

With hindsight I should have tacked off early to avoid the risk, particularly as the Blaze is not so close winded as a Laser.



Edited by Sam.Spoons - 07 Jan 20 at 10:08am
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Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"
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JimC View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Jan 20 at 11:00am
So three boats overlapped. RRS 11.
Leeward (ROW) tacks. On passing head to wind she must keep clear of all others RRS13. Presumably she must have tacked onto starboard, in which case she newly acquired ROW after completing the tack, and RRS15 applied.

Middle hails. Windward must tack as soon as possible (20.2) or hail back "you tack".

So, did you tack as soon as possible after being hailed? As soon as possible depends on the boat. If you were unable to respond in time then it seems possible middle broke 20.2a. It might be that middle was forced to break 20.2 by leeward breaking RRS15.

Edited by JimC - 07 Jan 20 at 11:02am
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