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Simple Rule Question

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Rupert View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Rupert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Jan 20 at 10:27am
Case 113, clear, concise and to the point. For once, I'm not left with a headache!
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Brass View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Jan 20 at 9:32am
Originally posted by davidyacht

In the L, M, W situation, if L hails Water or Room is he calling just M or both M and W?  Or does he have to wait for M to call W?

Our start line has a beach at the favoured end and if beating against a flood tide thirty boats will be heading into the beach on starboard ... given that we know that L is going to call, as soon as W hears the call he is likely to shout “water called” and push his helm down ... is the suggestion that he does not need to react until M calls?

I should add that L will typically carry on for a few boatlengths on starboard to secure an advantage ... but that is another story!

Pretty much all you need to know about when and when not to 'pass on' hails.

Rule 20, Room to Tack at an Obstruction
An explanation of the application of rule 20 when three boats sailing close-hauled on the same tack are approaching an obstruction and the leeward-most boat hails for room to tack, but cannot tack unless both boats to windward of her tack.


Edited by Brass - 08 Jan 20 at 9:32am
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Post Options Post Options   Quote PeterG Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Jan 20 at 9:13am
If the first boat to tack gets onto starboard close hauled course, others have to keep clear, end of.

If a boat manages to tack and gets onto a stbd close hauled course with the bow 1mm from the side of the ex windward boat, I think there would be considerable doubt about whether the tacking boat allowed room, unless they took a very slow tack (and we are talking about Lasers here). To say it's "end of" is clearly not true.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote davidyacht Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Jan 20 at 8:44am
In the L, M, W situation, if L hails Water or Room is he calling just M or both M and W?  Or does he have to wait for M to call W?

Our start line has a beach at the favoured end and if beating against a flood tide thirty boats will be heading into the beach on starboard ... given that we know that L is going to call, as soon as W hears the call he is likely to shout “water called” and push his helm down ... is the suggestion that he does not need to react until M calls?

I should add that L will typically carry on for a few boatlengths on starboard to secure an advantage ... but that is another story!


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Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Jan 20 at 6:32am
Think you're reading a different rulebook to me mate.

It really messes up rule understanding when people mix up a sort of semi tactical evaluation with the rules. Its a really bad idea. In the situation as described leeward broke a rule when they tacked. That's it.

There is definitely no requirement in the rules to anticipate that another competitor might break a rule.

Edited by JimC - 08 Jan 20 at 6:39am
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Post Options Post Options   Quote RS400atC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Jan 20 at 12:39am
Originally posted by Sam.Spoons

...

I disagree, but only in the sense that M hailing and tacking almost simultaneously did not give W the chance to keep clear, W was under no obligation to anticipate L tacking.

...


You can choose to anticipate it or put your head in sand, leeward/ahead boat on port tack, if he's not pinned down totally, will take his chance to get onto starboard at some point. Your supposed to be 'keeping clear' that means you have the spacce to respond without anticiapation.
Take the middle boat out of the picture, the windward boat has to keep clear of the leeward, and once the leeward boat is down to its stbd course, the port boat has to keep clear.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote epicfail Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Jan 20 at 11:42pm
Ok....maybe it wasn't such a simple question. I am enjoying reading the answers. 


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Post Options Post Options   Quote Sam.Spoons Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Jan 20 at 10:54pm
Originally posted by RS400atC

Sails filling on the new tack does no currently figure in the rules.
If the first boat to tack gets onto starboard close hauled course, others have to keep clear, end of.
Sounds to me like the Blaze should have tacked as soon as the leeward boatd started to tack, it was only going to end one way? The middle boat is just middle lane flotsam, the onus is on the windward boat to 'keep clear' of the leeward boat.

And with its 1027 PY, the Blaze is clearly in 'in the wrong' if it's bickering with Lasers. Once they drag you into their PY 1099 conflict zone, you've lost.

I disagree, but only in the sense that M hailing and tacking almost simultaneously did not give W the chance to keep clear, W was under no obligation to anticipate L tacking.

WRT speed differences, in F2-3 sub-planing the Blaze is barely faster than a Laser but I agree that with hindsight I should have stayed out of their way. As I said above I was engaged in a close race with two other Blazes myself and should not be expected to compromise my tactics. But with nearly 70 boats on a small lake you are bound to come into conflict with others.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Jan 20 at 9:52pm
Originally posted by Sam.Spoons

That begs the question "if I was Leeward how close to Middle can I tack without hailing for room?"

If you have space to tack and avoid M in a seamanlike way, you need not hail.  If M than chooses to tack in front of W, that's her look-out.

If, as JimC has assumed, you are tacking from port onto starboard, if you have space to tack, reach a close hauled course then give M room to keep clear of you, you need not hail.

I suspect he will say he had completed his tack and left Middle enough room to tack to avoid,

As JumC said, the room L, gaining right of way, needs to give M includees room for M to comply with her obligations under the rules, which, if M needs to tack and needs room to do so from W, includes room for M to hail W and for W to respond in accordance with rule 20.

 Middle but in practice Middle could not without without hailing Windward (me) to tack first.

Then L needed to give M room to do that as part of her rule 15 obligations, and if she couldn't do that, she damn well should have, herself hailed for room in accordance with rule 20.

 What would Middle's best course of action be? I would probably have hit Leeward and called protest on rule 15 but would that have been the right thing to do?

Ease sheets, pinch and back out of the sandwich. protesting loudly the while?

"take such action as will best aid to avoid collision"?

Once somebody steps outside the rules, every one needs to try to avoid contact and/or minimise damage.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote RS400atC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Jan 20 at 9:40pm
Sails filling on the new tack does no currently figure in the rules.
If the first boat to tack gets onto starboard close hauled course, others have to keep clear, end of.
Sounds to me like the Blaze should have tacked as soon as the leeward boatd started to tack, it was only going to end one way? The middle boat is just middle lane flotsam, the onus is on the windward boat to 'keep clear' of the leeward boat.

And with its 1027 PY, the Blaze is clearly in 'in the wrong' if it's bickering with Lasers. Once they drag you into their PY 1099 conflict zone, you've lost.
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