New Posts New Posts RSS Feed: Technical protest
  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Register Register  Login Login

Technical protest
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <1234 11>
Author
  Share Topic Share Topic  Topic Search Topic Search  Topic Options Topic Options
Rupert View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more


Joined: 11 Aug 04
Location: Whitefriars sc
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 8956 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Rupert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Technical protest
    Posted: 13 Nov 19 at 9:30pm
Looks like the CA tech sec would be the first port of call.
Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686
Back to Top
sargesail View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more
Avatar

Joined: 14 Jan 06
Location: United Kingdom
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1459 		Post Options Post Options   Quote sargesail Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Nov 19 at 11:03pm
Originally posted by ian.r.mcdonald

Whilst of course the best option is to get someone with an aura of authority and not involved in any future protest to speak to the transgressors . We want to race rather than sit in protest rooms, why dont you revert to original settings and avoid future issues?


I’d add to the excellent comments from Jim C and Rupert that a properly constituted protest also gives the protestee rights, including appeal. That’s especially important with abc pass rules issue.
Back to Top
Brass View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more


Joined: 24 Mar 08
Location: Australia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1146 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Nov 19 at 11:34pm
Originally posted by gbrspratt

Example: at a club Wednesday night race. You have a few development class dinghy's racing. Amongst themselves they notice one of the boats has either found a loop hole in the rules or has done something illegal. So one helpful chap protests. What is the process here? Because the rule relates to the class and not an on the water event? How does a local club deal with it? Is it out of their hands or do they have to get the RYA and/or class involved to help? Or make their own ruling?

A protest committee hearing any protest should do the best they can to reach appropriate conclusions and decisions.

Class rules, for the most part, are not all that arcane.  It's up to the protesting boat to draw the attention of the protest committee to what she considers the relevant rules to be, explain how they think the rule applies, and present evidence of facts that they think show the rule was broken.

Only if the protest committee is in genuine doubt about the meaning of a class rule should they go scurrying off to find an 'expert'.

While different class rules have a wide variety of provisions about when and where the class rules apply, rule 78.1 always covers the ground where there is an alleged physical breach.

78.1 While a boat is racing, her owner and any other person in charge shall ensure that the boat is maintained to comply with her class rules and that her measurement or rating certificate, if any, remains valid. In addition, the boat shall also comply at other times specified in the class rules, the notice of race or the sailing instructions.

So the rule applies 'while racing', the protest will apply to a specific race, and the breach will be 'an incident in the racing area', so, in accordance with rule61.1a, for the protest to be valid :
  • if the protesting boat was involved in or saw the incident, she is required to hail 'Protest' and if necessary display a red flag at the first reasonably opportunity, and because the breach is 'ongoing' any time during the race will do, with respect to the breach the instant before;
  • if the protesting boat was not involved in or saw the breach, but is just relying on the jungle tom-toms, the protesting boat is required to inform the the protestee at the first reasonable opportunity.

The path this should then normally take at a club is as follows:
  1. The protesting boat delivers a written protest,
  2. The protest committee hears the protest (the protest committee might prepare themselves for the hearing by having some discussions with a class measurer or other person associated with the class AND OBTAIN A COPY OF THE CLASS RULES).  The protest committee might, if it was uneasy, also seek advice of their RYA Regional Rules Adviser.
  3. If it is alleged that the rule was broken in more than one race, this is technically multiple protests, being heard together.  The protest committee should focus on the last alleged incident/race, and get out the relevant facts, and hear arguments from both parties about how the class rules apply.  Parties might call as witnesses, Class Measurers, or other Class Association officials or 'eminent persons' to provide opinion evidence about how the class rules apply, or, if the protest committee had a suitable contact, the protest committee could call them as a witness.  The protest committee should then look at the class rules for themselves, not relying on what someone said the class rules say, and form a conclusion about whether or not the class rule was broken.  This is the point at which the protest committee may fall into doubt and seek advice of an authority responsible for interpreting the rule in accordance with rule 64.3b.
  4. If the conclusion is that the class rule was broken it should then consider rule 64.3a and then, it may decide to penalise the boat in the race considered.
  5. .The protest committee should then consider facts relevant to earlier races in the series (this is why you do the last incident first), obtaining further evidence if necessary, and reach conclusions whether the boat also broke the same rule in earlier races in the same event, and if so, may penalise the boat in those earlier races (rule 64.3c).


Edited by Brass - 13 Nov 19 at 11:44pm
Back to Top
fudheid View Drop Down
Far too distracted from work
Far too distracted from work
Avatar

Joined: 21 Apr 11
Location: 51.53 N 01.28 E
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 241 		Post Options Post Options   Quote fudheid Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Nov 19 at 3:50pm
Originally posted by Brass

Originally posted by gbrspratt

Example: at a club Wednesday night race. You have a few development class dinghy's racing. Amongst themselves they notice one of the boats has either found a loop hole in the rules or has done something illegal. So one helpful chap protests. What is the process here? Because the rule relates to the class and not an on the water event? How does a local club deal with it? Is it out of their hands or do they have to get the RYA and/or class involved to help? Or make their own ruling?

A protest committee hearing any protest should do the best they can to reach appropriate conclusions and decisions.

Class rules, for the most part, are not all that arcane.  It's up to the protesting boat to draw the attention of the protest committee to what she considers the relevant rules to be, explain how they think the rule applies, and present evidence of facts that they think show the rule was broken.

Only if the protest committee is in genuine doubt about the meaning of a class rule should they go scurrying off to find an 'expert'.

While different class rules have a wide variety of provisions about when and where the class rules apply, rule 78.1 always covers the ground where there is an alleged physical breach.

78.1 While a boat is racing, her owner and any other person in charge shall ensure that the boat is maintained to comply with her class rules and that her measurement or rating certificate, if any, remains valid. In addition, the boat shall also comply at other times specified in the class rules, the notice of race or the sailing instructions.

So the rule applies 'while racing', the protest will apply to a specific race, and the breach will be 'an incident in the racing area', so, in accordance with rule61.1a, for the protest to be valid :
  • if the protesting boat was involved in or saw the incident, she is required to hail 'Protest' and if necessary display a red flag at the first reasonably opportunity, and because the breach is 'ongoing' any time during the race will do, with respect to the breach the instant before;
  • if the protesting boat was not involved in or saw the breach, but is just relying on the jungle tom-toms, the protesting boat is required to inform the the protestee at the first reasonable opportunity.
So i could as a non sailing / racing competitor write to the alleged offender stating which class rule and then submit a protest to the race club / OA / MNA /World sailing depending on whether class is national, international etc?

The path this should then normally take at a club is as follows:
  1. The protesting boat delivers a written protest,
  2. The protest committee hears the protest (the protest committee might prepare themselves for the hearing by having some discussions with a class measurer or other person associated with the class AND OBTAIN A COPY OF THE CLASS RULES).  The protest committee might, if it was uneasy, also seek advice of their RYA Regional Rules Adviser.
  3. If it is alleged that the rule was broken in more than one race, this is technically multiple protests, being heard together.  The protest committee should focus on the last alleged incident/race, and get out the relevant facts, and hear arguments from both parties about how the class rules apply.  Parties might call as witnesses, Class Measurers, or other Class Association officials or 'eminent persons' to provide opinion evidence about how the class rules apply, or, if the protest committee had a suitable contact, the protest committee could call them as a witness.  The protest committee should then look at the class rules for themselves, not relying on what someone said the class rules say, and form a conclusion about whether or not the class rule was broken.  This is the point at which the protest committee may fall into doubt and seek advice of an authority responsible for interpreting the rule in accordance with rule 64.3b.
  4. If the conclusion is that the class rule was broken it should then consider rule 64.3a and then, it may decide to penalise the boat in the race considered.
  5. .The protest committee should then consider facts relevant to earlier races in the series (this is why you do the last incident first), obtaining further evidence if necessary, and reach conclusions whether the boat also broke the same rule in earlier races in the same event, and if so, may penalise the boat in those earlier races (rule 64.3c).
Cheers you

only me from over the sea......
Back to Top
JimC View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more
Avatar

Joined: 17 May 04
Location: United Kingdom
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 6649 		Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Nov 19 at 6:09pm
Originally posted by fudheid

So i could as a non sailing / racing competitor write to the alleged offender stating which class rule and then submit a protest to the race club / OA / MNA /World sailing depending on whether class is national, international etc?

A protest always goes to the race organiser - the club in 99% of cases. Its up to the club to choose whether they wish/need to involve a higher authority. Protests are technically made by other boats, presumably other competitors in the event, I don't think a unrelated party can open one, although anyone may make a report to a race committee about alleged misconduct.

Back to Top
fudheid View Drop Down
Far too distracted from work
Far too distracted from work
Avatar

Joined: 21 Apr 11
Location: 51.53 N 01.28 E
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 241 		Post Options Post Options   Quote fudheid Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Nov 19 at 8:21am
what about doing it as a rule 2 or rule 69, that could be done by contacting the MNA? if an international / national class? It's unethical to race with what you believe to be an 'out of class' boat. Isn't that what happened to Iker in the nacra's?
Cheers you

only me from over the sea......
Back to Top
Rupert View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more


Joined: 11 Aug 04
Location: Whitefriars sc
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 8956 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Rupert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Nov 19 at 8:47am
Isn't the point that the boat owner believes his/her boat to be within class, but someone else doesn't?
Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686
Back to Top
JimC View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more
Avatar

Joined: 17 May 04
Location: United Kingdom
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 6649 		Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Nov 19 at 10:32am
Originally posted by fudheid

what about doing it as a rule 2 or rule 69, that could be done by contacting the MNA?

Its still got to be tied to an event and an event organiser. How can it be anything else? Its hardly logical to accuse someone of breaking the rules if you can't/won't say when and where it happened. The notorious Nacra cheating happened at a particular event.

The rule application is strictly limited. There's nothing wrong with modifying your boat out of class. Nothing in the rules to stop you. It simply ceases to be a member of that class. What breaks the rules is entering an event claiming a boat to conform to class rules when it does not, be it deliberate cheating or a difference of opinion on rule interpretation.

Edited by JimC - 15 Nov 19 at 10:36am
Back to Top
fudheid View Drop Down
Far too distracted from work
Far too distracted from work
Avatar

Joined: 21 Apr 11
Location: 51.53 N 01.28 E
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 241 		Post Options Post Options   Quote fudheid Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Nov 19 at 10:55am
Originally posted by JimC

Originally posted by fudheid

what about doing it as a rule 2 or rule 69, that could be done by contacting the MNA?

Its still got to be tied to an event and an event organiser. How can it be anything else? Its hardly logical to accuse someone of breaking the rules if you can't/won't say when and where it happened. The notorious Nacra cheating happened at a particular event. 
Well actually it was at a few i believe but one was used in example.  

The rule application is strictly limited. There's nothing wrong with modifying your boat out of class. Nothing in the rules to stop you. It simply ceases to be a member of that class. What breaks the rules is entering an event claiming a boat to conform to class rules when it does not, be it deliberate cheating or a difference of opinion on rule interpretation.


Its not about modifying out of class intentionally, its about a developing your class, the boat /rig / foils/ sails (whatever), making the boat faster / rig more effective, blades developing lift. it's about people spending money on their passion to make their boat quicker, finding a 'loophole' maybe and using it to go quicker, or thinking differently about a problem that begets a net gain on the water.

The class rules don't restrict it per se, as they are open rules (and they definitely don't mention any of these so called illegalities) the class are maybe very conservative (or very rich lol) and think they should be illegal, maybe they think protecting the staus quo is good for the fleet (maybe because it makes the rest of the fleet obsolete,  everyones boats are neaerly from the same builder, with minor differences, unlike this huge gain) the measurer thinks they are legal, see above about Open rule development class. Some of it might be a cheap addition (like fairings?), but others might be expensive rig / rudder development.
But no one is protesting because of all the above examples (and the same reason no one protests at club or even open meetings) its not nice, no one wants to protest, it upsets people, noses get put out of joint, blah blah blah whats wrong that you can't protest and have a reasonable discussion / result, people will throw toys out of the pram, someone will incur costs...whatever. so no one finds the edge of the rule, no one finds the right or wrong answer, just grumbling and muttering about illegal boats.

So the position continues, another boat sports the addition, a few say 'hang on' we don't think that's legal....no one protests, informally the measurer says yes....
The point.

So why not have an 'informal' protest at a club, where it can be escalated to the RYA / World sailing and the technical geeks can help construct a better rule?
Cheers you

only me from over the sea......
Back to Top
JimC View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more
Avatar

Joined: 17 May 04
Location: United Kingdom
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 6649 		Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Nov 19 at 11:06am
If the measurer says yes informally, why do you think you'll get a different result if you ask him more formally?

Most development classes have a process where CA members can propose rule changes if they think one is required.

TBH, if people don't want to do things properly and have a formal protest with all inbuilt checks and balances to ensure fairness then maybe they'd be better keeping their mouths shut. A protest might cause a bit of bad feeling, if people are stupid about it, but nothing to the bad feeling caused by months of backbiting, rumours, whispering in corners and everything you suggest is going on now.



Edited by JimC - 15 Nov 19 at 11:10am
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <1234 11>

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Bulletin Board Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 9.665y
Copyright ©2001-2010 Web Wiz
Change your personal settings, or read our privacy policy