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423zero View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote 423zero Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Nov 19 at 11:46pm
Still trying to push the boundaries, just enjoy your racing and use skill to win.
Robert
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Post Options Post Options   Quote fudheid Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Nov 19 at 8:25am
hard to win in a development class if you are just relying on your phsyical sailing skill, how do you think moths 'took off'  it wasn't through sailors relying on sailing skill, it was technical sailing theory and development, sailing is multi faceted, it is art and science, you need to be more than just a sailor pulling sheets and rudders, ..we'd all be in wooden boats with cotton sails, i'm sure dacron was deemed illegal.
the enjoyment of racing in a development class is trying new things that change the perspective of others, make the boat quicker, even in one designs, crews are looking for an advantage, some people are happy to get masts and hulls built to 'new' design theory, rudders etc, that is part of sailing for them, we can't all buy boats from RS and laser - or can we? tried that nice enough boats but a little bland....

Cheers you

only me from over the sea......
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Post Options Post Options   Quote 423zero Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Nov 19 at 9:23am
Mirror and Minisail, Enterprise.
Seems pointless to join a development class and then call someone for what to me appears to be a good idea, combine a halliard bag with a sail fill in, very elegant.
Robert
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Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Nov 19 at 9:54am
Originally posted by gbrspratt

   It originates from Merlin's and putting a halyard bag in between the kicker/boom/mast.


I see. Well that's easy enough and common enough. Attempted rule bending by logic chopping is nothing new: "if I can dream up a way to call extra [sail area|hull length|corrector weights|something else] a [something different] it must be legal".

Of course that's nonsense. If it quacks like a duck it counts as a duck. Just because its a halyard bag doesn't mean it isn't also sail area. 49er/29er for examples. So if the class measures total sail area it counts towards sail area, and if it only permits n sails then its an extra sail.

In the past it has amazed me in the past how upset people have got when this obvious and fair interpretation of the way rules work is pointed out to them and their 'genius' concept is shot down. Perhaps the most high profile toy throwing exercise was the Krazy Kyote mast. Its on the net, and people involved still whinge about what was a completely fair and reasonable rule interpretation.

Edited by JimC - 18 Nov 19 at 10:09am
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Sam.Spoons Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Nov 19 at 10:23am
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Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Nov 19 at 10:31am
The sum of the Krazy Kyote saga was that it was a long chord fixed mast that was designed to flex in rotation. So the designer hoped it would attract the rating credit for a very large fixed mast, but flex, at least upwind, sufficiently so that the actual drag of the mast would be nearer to that of a rotating mast, which of course gets a much smaller rating credit than a fixed one.

What happened was that the rule authorities said "OK, if its a mast that's inbetween a fixed mast and a rotating one, then we'll give you a rating credit that's inbetween too", at which point toys were thrown out of the pram.

Edited by JimC - 18 Nov 19 at 10:38am
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Sam.Spoons Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Nov 19 at 10:46am
It obviously worked, and was legal within the rule as it existed at the time. As has been said the CA can change the rule to take account of the innovation, either to outlaw it it or introduce a rating penalty to level the playing field but can't apply the new rule retrospectively. According to the Mark Chisnell article I linked above, the authorities re-rated the boat by falsifying the mast measurements remove the rating advantage the boat had under the rule. The owner, quite rightly, refused to sign the rating certificate as the numbers were incorrect.

Edited by Sam.Spoons - 18 Nov 19 at 10:46am
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Post Options Post Options   Quote 423zero Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Nov 19 at 10:52am
Whole thing bordering on unsportsmanlike behaviour.
Robert
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Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Nov 19 at 11:00am
Originally posted by Sam.Spoons


It obviously worked, and was legal within the rule as it existed at the time.

It wasn't illegal, and wasn't prohibited from racing. It was merely given a rating which reflected the actual likely performance on the race course, which was something specifically required in the rule. How useful the innovation was is handily demonstrated by the fact that no other boat has been seen with a torsionally bending mast since!

A few years ago I thought the kicker infill would be a good idea for my IC, so I had the mainsail cut a little bit smaller so that the total sail area including the infill would still be within the rules. When I actually tried it I hated it, so for the next few years I had fractionally undersized sails!

There are people who think that rule writing should be a logic chopping competition between the rule writers and the designers. That opinion is not shared by rule writers, who are more concerned with trying to make the rules as clear and fair as possible. Consider competitors whose first language is not that of the rule: that explains why playing word games should have no part in a sailing/design competition.

Edited by JimC - 18 Nov 19 at 11:41am
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Sam.Spoons Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Nov 19 at 12:15pm
Originally posted by JimC

Originally posted by Sam.Spoons


It obviously worked, and was legal within the rule as it existed at the time.

It wasn't illegal, and wasn't prohibited from racing. It was merely given a rating which reflected the actual likely performance on the race course, which was something specifically required in the rule. How useful the innovation was is handily demonstrated by the fact that no other boat has been seen with a torsionally bending mast since!

If the way the 'revised' rating was arrived at was by falsifying the measurements to better suit what the handicappers thought the rating should be that is clearly wrong. Designing a boat that exploits a 'loophole' in the rule has been going on as long as rating/handicap rules and development classes have existed. Mark Chisnell, in his article, takes a very balanced view IMO.

FWIW I choose to sail a SMOD but because I happen to like the boat, not because it has strict rules WRT modifications.  If we don't allow innovation we don't get progress in design. In my view it is totally within the 'spirit' of the rules and sailing would be much duller if we only had SMODs and strict one designs.
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