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Rupert
Really should get out more Joined: 11 Aug 04 Location: Whitefriars sc Online Status: Offline Posts: 8956 |
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Topic: Technical protest Posted: 13 Nov 19 at 9:30pm |
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Looks like the CA tech sec would be the first port of call.
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Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686
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sargesail
Really should get out more Joined: 14 Jan 06 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 1459 |
Post Options Quote Reply Posted: 13 Nov 19 at 11:03pm | |
I’d add to the excellent comments from Jim C and Rupert that a properly constituted protest also gives the protestee rights, including appeal. That’s especially important with abc pass rules issue. |
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Brass
Really should get out more Joined: 24 Mar 08 Location: Australia Online Status: Offline Posts: 1146 |
Post Options Quote Reply Posted: 13 Nov 19 at 11:34pm | |
A protest committee hearing any protest should do the best they can to reach appropriate conclusions and decisions. Class rules, for the most part, are not all that arcane. It's up to the protesting boat to draw the attention of the protest committee to what she considers the relevant rules to be, explain how they think the rule applies, and present evidence of facts that they think show the rule was broken. Only if the protest committee is in genuine doubt about the meaning of a class rule should they go scurrying off to find an 'expert'. While different class rules have a wide variety of provisions about when and where the class rules apply, rule 78.1 always covers the ground where there is an alleged physical breach.
So the rule applies 'while racing', the protest will apply to a specific race, and the breach will be 'an incident in the racing area', so, in accordance with rule61.1a, for the protest to be valid :
The path this should then normally take at a club is as follows:
Edited by Brass - 13 Nov 19 at 11:44pm |
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fudheid
Far too distracted from work Joined: 21 Apr 11 Location: 51.53 N 01.28 E Online Status: Offline Posts: 241 |
Post Options Quote Reply Posted: 14 Nov 19 at 3:50pm | |
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Cheers you
only me from over the sea...... |
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JimC
Really should get out more Joined: 17 May 04 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 6649 |
Post Options Quote Reply Posted: 14 Nov 19 at 6:09pm | |
A protest always goes to the race organiser - the club in 99% of cases. Its up to the club to choose whether they wish/need to involve a higher authority. Protests are technically made by other boats, presumably other competitors in the event, I don't think a unrelated party can open one, although anyone may make a report to a race committee about alleged misconduct. |
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fudheid
Far too distracted from work Joined: 21 Apr 11 Location: 51.53 N 01.28 E Online Status: Offline Posts: 241 |
Post Options Quote Reply Posted: 15 Nov 19 at 8:21am | |
what about doing it as a rule 2 or rule 69, that could be done by contacting the MNA? if an international / national class? It's unethical to race with what you believe to be an 'out of class' boat. Isn't that what happened to Iker in the nacra's?
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Cheers you
only me from over the sea...... |
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Rupert
Really should get out more Joined: 11 Aug 04 Location: Whitefriars sc Online Status: Offline Posts: 8956 |
Post Options Quote Reply Posted: 15 Nov 19 at 8:47am | |
Isn't the point that the boat owner believes his/her boat to be within class, but someone else doesn't?
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Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686
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JimC
Really should get out more Joined: 17 May 04 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 6649 |
Post Options Quote Reply Posted: 15 Nov 19 at 10:32am | |
Its still got to be tied to an event and an event organiser. How can it be anything else? Its hardly logical to accuse someone of breaking the rules if you can't/won't say when and where it happened. The notorious Nacra cheating happened at a particular event. The rule application is strictly limited. There's nothing wrong with modifying your boat out of class. Nothing in the rules to stop you. It simply ceases to be a member of that class. What breaks the rules is entering an event claiming a boat to conform to class rules when it does not, be it deliberate cheating or a difference of opinion on rule interpretation. Edited by JimC - 15 Nov 19 at 10:36am |
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fudheid
Far too distracted from work Joined: 21 Apr 11 Location: 51.53 N 01.28 E Online Status: Offline Posts: 241 |
Post Options Quote Reply Posted: 15 Nov 19 at 10:55am | |
Its not about modifying out of class intentionally, its about a developing your class, the boat /rig / foils/ sails (whatever), making the boat faster / rig more effective, blades developing lift. it's about people spending money on their passion to make their boat quicker, finding a 'loophole' maybe and using it to go quicker, or thinking differently about a problem that begets a net gain on the water. The class rules don't restrict it per se, as they are open rules (and they definitely don't mention any of these so called illegalities) the class are maybe very conservative (or very rich lol) and think they should be illegal, maybe they think protecting the staus quo is good for the fleet (maybe because it makes the rest of the fleet obsolete, everyones boats are neaerly from the same builder, with minor differences, unlike this huge gain) the measurer thinks they are legal, see above about Open rule development class. Some of it might be a cheap addition (like fairings?), but others might be expensive rig / rudder development. But no one is protesting because of all the above examples (and the same reason no one protests at club or even open meetings) its not nice, no one wants to protest, it upsets people, noses get put out of joint, blah blah blah whats wrong that you can't protest and have a reasonable discussion / result, people will throw toys out of the pram, someone will incur costs...whatever. so no one finds the edge of the rule, no one finds the right or wrong answer, just grumbling and muttering about illegal boats. So the position continues, another boat sports the addition, a few say 'hang on' we don't think that's legal....no one protests, informally the measurer says yes.... The point. So why not have an 'informal' protest at a club, where it can be escalated to the RYA / World sailing and the technical geeks can help construct a better rule?
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Cheers you
only me from over the sea...... |
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JimC
Really should get out more Joined: 17 May 04 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 6649 |
Post Options Quote Reply Posted: 15 Nov 19 at 11:06am | |
If the measurer says yes informally, why do you think you'll get a different result if you ask him more formally?
Most development classes have a process where CA members can propose rule changes if they think one is required. TBH, if people don't want to do things properly and have a formal protest with all inbuilt checks and balances to ensure fairness then maybe they'd be better keeping their mouths shut. A protest might cause a bit of bad feeling, if people are stupid about it, but nothing to the bad feeling caused by months of backbiting, rumours, whispering in corners and everything you suggest is going on now. Edited by JimC - 15 Nov 19 at 11:10am |
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