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The Decline and Fall of our Sport.

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zeon View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote zeon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Nov 19 at 11:21pm
Originally posted by Sam.Spoons

Yup, and that's true of nearly everything in our H&S/litigation obsessed society.


This is just silly tosh .

At my club nobody now has up to date rya accreditation for training. Does this stop us organising training for new members , NO IT DOESNT.

Perhaps if people stopped blaming H&S  and the RYA in the online world and did things in the real world our sport would be a better and more welcoming place .


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Post Options Post Options   Quote iGRF Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Nov 19 at 11:35pm
Originally posted by davidyacht

]Even if the RYA were a 100% on message I really don’t see how they can turn this tide.
]


Yeah, and in all seriousness it's not really their job, it's the job of the 'Industry' such that it is, it's their market, they should be coming upwith initiatives to stimulate it, rather like the Laser and their club edition, which is all very well, but they need to do a bit more 'pull effect' marketing.

They should produce the 'how to race this boat brochure' tie in a social media campaign with an effort to bring clubs on board sell the boat with a course on how to race it to seniors, incentivise local fleets, that sort of thing...

There is no 'big idea' there is only slog, go out, find bodys to buy boats and then go race them.

They've relied on the RYA and club class system for so long they've missed the essentials.

None of these other sports work like that, there were no paddlesport clubs, no kitesurf clubs these businesses had to create their own infrastructure, promote their sports, persuade folk to sell the products incentivised with a profit margin, it's a bit where the dinghy vertical market aint helping them in this day and age.

But ultimately it's their job and probably ours to nudge them into doing more.



Edited by iGRF - 10 Nov 19 at 11:41pm
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Sam.Spoons Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Nov 19 at 11:36pm
Originally posted by zeon

Originally posted by Sam.Spoons

Yup, and that's true of nearly everything in our H&S/litigation obsessed society.


This is just silly tosh .

At my club nobody now has up to date rya accreditation for training. Does this stop us organising training for new members , NO IT DOESNT.

Perhaps if people stopped blaming H&S  and the RYA in the online world and did things in the real world our sport would be a better and more welcoming place .



And no it shouldn't but in most places it does.

Everybody is frightened of being sued 'cos little Johnnie bruised his finger on the jib cleat. Ok that's a wild exaggeration but it cannot be argued that we live in a very risk averse society and it is acting against people who might want to get involved 'action sports' like sailing.

I learned to sail by being pushed off on an Oppy and allowed to work it out for myself, I would walk a mile down to the beach and go sailing with no more cover than the fact that the club members who were around knew who I was and kept a weather eye on me. I was 11 years old at the time and that freedom was a huge attraction that kindled a love of sailing that I still have 55 years later.


Edited by Sam.Spoons - 10 Nov 19 at 11:39pm
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Post Options Post Options   Quote tink Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Nov 19 at 7:01am
The RYA training system is too onerous for instructors and chief instructors and it is a massive time commitment. Once the new sailors are trained the instructors, rightly, just want to go off to race. The newbies are left to ‘casual sail’ too scared to race. One excellent club on the North Yorkshire moors has a full time development officer who runs an intro to racing course to stop drop out of newly qualified sailors. 
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Post Options Post Options   Quote 423zero Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Nov 19 at 7:14am
Dear dear, you must sail at some miserable clubs,my club may be small, new members or old members come to that, get advice and practical help.


Edited by 423zero - 11 Nov 19 at 7:16am
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Post Options Post Options   Quote tink Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Nov 19 at 7:16am
Originally posted by iGRF

Originally posted by Sam.Spoons


Originally posted by tink

Found some PY numbers from 2012 with the number of returns, total returns 211,000
Same number 2019 - 138,000 
There where a lot more classes in 2012 and perhaps the RYA is ignoring the small classes in the newer returns but still quite a difference,
radically different from the 216,000 the participation survey says race small boats 

The problem is that classes who return fewer than 100 races don't figure in the main PN list, and while some of the others manage to do enough to get into the EN list it doesn't publish the numbers of races returned. And in both cases it is the number of race not the number of participants that is counted.


There is no question we're in decline, we know this because the RYA were paying consultants weren't they, who were probably telling them what any club could tell them, I think that organisation is so big, bureaucratic and hog tied with their own rules and regs there's nothing they can do that will address our issues.

Sure they'll push the boat out once a year and we get a few more tryouts on sunny spring days, some might take courses, some might even learn to potter about, but they're not being taught the sport we know, we need a concerted effort to teach mature adults not just to sail, but to use sailing as part of the bigger game that we enjoy, the 3D chess match with the elements.

Because if we don't, what will happen? The answer is simple, if you make boats for a given volume and you cost accordingly, then that volume drops, you have no choice but to increase that price, as you may or may not have noticed has been occuring, even in this short period, look at the cost of the RS100 for instance, almost developed on this forum it could be bought for what 5-6 grand and its now what 9 grand plus? So you get into a viscious downward spiral with numbers and upward spiral in pricing, then it'll be club fees, sails and accessories, so it really is in everyones interest to try all and anything to stem the flow.

Boats wise there is no middle ground, it is either a roto plastic thing that no serious sail wants or a high tech build trying to compete on the last gram of performance or small classes manufactured expensively by artisans. There as to be a market for a well made production boat design for GRP focusing on cost. Obviously there is now the laser club as an example but what if a new / or existing OD was developed to fit into this space. 
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Rupert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Nov 19 at 7:57am
Blimey, lots of sad depressed people last night spouting doom and gloom.

To hand out RYA certificates, you need to be an RYA instructor working somewhere which is an RYA training centre. Does any other organisation do things any other way?

As a class multiple champion, running coaching sessions, you don't need to be an RYA coach or instructor (though the courses might help the structure), you just can't run RYA Start Racing. As this isn't the aim, what's the problem?

Billy can teach his mates to sail. Chances are, most clubs would object to Billy having his mates pay him to do this, but again, this isn't the point. Billy can even teach his mate's mates to sail. But what if Billy knot only knew how to sail, but got taught how to teach, too? He might pick up some hints and tips to teach his mates and their mates to sail better? Still no certificates allowed, but that's not the point, right?

But now, people want to pay Billy to teach them to sail. Suddenly, the game changes. They might want proof of his expertise, a piece of paper at the end of it to show that they learned. Billy might want the reassurance of insurance cover if something goes wrong. Maybe he could teach sailing through his club structure and get all that?

Or carry on teaching his mates, quite happily.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote H2 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Nov 19 at 9:23am
Originally posted by tink

Found some PY numbers from 2012 with the number of returns, total returns 211,000
Same number 2019 - 138,000 

There where a lot more classes in 2012 and perhaps the RYA is ignoring the small classes in the newer returns but still quite a difference,

radically different from the 216,000 the participation survey says race small boats 

My experience of clubs making returns to the RYA is that only handicap results are submitted and any fleet races are not submitted as they have no bearing in the PY calcs so the 138,000 number in 2019 is the number of races completed in handicap events. The RYA probably adds to that the number of races completed in fleet races as well as races from clubs that do not submit returns in order to estimate that 216,000 participate in races. That is just my guess!

Having said that - the 211,000 number from 2012 and 138,000 in 2019 are probably directly comparable and do show a trend of less boats out racing!
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Post Options Post Options   Quote H2 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Nov 19 at 9:26am
Originally posted by Sam.Spoons

Originally posted by tink

Found some PY numbers from 2012 with the number of returns, total returns 211,000
Same number 2019 - 138,000 

There where a lot more classes in 2012 and perhaps the RYA is ignoring the small classes in the newer returns but still quite a difference,

radically different from the 216,000 the participation survey says race small boats 

The problem is that classes who return fewer than 100 races don't figure in the main PN list, and while some of the others manage to do enough to get into the EN list it doesn't publish the numbers of races returned. And in both cases it is the number of race not the number of participants that is counted.

But how hard is it for a class to submit 100 races? I mean, I am out every weekend and do at least two races per weekend albeit some of those are not submitted to the RYA as they are Great Lakes events or nationals / opens which I doubt get submitted so I probably do 80 to 90 races at my club which are submitted over an average year!
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Post Options Post Options   Quote H2 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Nov 19 at 9:34am
I do agree with some of what is being said on this post, I am especially concerned by the number of new boats that seem to be sold which I sense is overall in decline and the average age of those sailing which is getting older.

However - our Frostbite series started six weeks ago and we have had 56 different boats take part with more than 20 boats out each race except for one weekend that had only 12. The most we had was 31 boats on the start line. This is a small pond in the Cotswolds rather than some big fancy club; my point is that people are still out there having fun!


Edited by H2 - 11 Nov 19 at 9:34am
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