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So, just how important is a Boats PY yardstick?

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ian.r.mcdonald View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote ian.r.mcdonald Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Oct 19 at 3:57pm
Originally posted by davidyacht

The joy of the Solo sail is that market forces, i.e. completion between North, HD, P&B and Hyde and development over 70 years, has created a durable product and once you have set up the mast as per the tuning guides, simple adjustments of the outhaul/inhaul, kicker and Cunningham give you control across the wind range.  Something that OEM classes struggle to do ... because there is insufficient margin to hit price points.


And of course Jon at Edge!
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Post Options Post Options   Quote tink Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Oct 19 at 4:30pm
Originally posted by davidyacht

The joy of the Solo sail is that market forces, i.e. completion between North, HD, P&B and Hyde and development over 70 years, has created a durable product and once you have set up the mast as per the tuning guides, simple adjustments of the outhaul/inhaul, kicker and Cunningham give you control across the wind range.  Something that OEM classes struggle to do ... because there is insufficient margin to hit price points.

At the expense of a complex combination of masts and sails that make buying a second hand boat ...... complex. I would love you enlighten me
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Post Options Post Options   Quote davidyacht Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Oct 19 at 5:30pm
D+ has been derigeur for quite a few years and being alloy not overly expensive.  North, HD, Hyde, P&B and Edge can be bought on seasonal offers and hold competitive shape for several seasons.  So amortised over two or three years the costs are not silly.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote zeon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Oct 19 at 5:48pm
Miss having Jon at Edge in Coventry. It’s always useful to have a sail makers in the same city. 

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Post Options Post Options   Quote Sam.Spoons Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Oct 19 at 6:23pm
Originally posted by davidyacht

D+ has been derigeur for quite a few years and being alloy not overly expensive.  North, HD, Hyde, P&B and Edge can be bought on seasonal offers and hold competitive shape for several seasons.  So amortised over two or three years the costs are not silly.

Probably cheaper in the long run than a Laser rig to stay competitive.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote tink Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Oct 19 at 5:39am
By my reckoning you can get a good ten year old laser for about 2k , similar Solo 4k+ so that’s just shy of 4 laser sails difference. In that time you’re likely to replace the Solo sail at least once. 

A Laser Master and coach once told me he was replacing his sail for every major event, so not cheap to run.

Not really making any point or conclusions they are Apples and Pears in terms of boats, just the sort of thing I like to think about. 

A new Solo is about 1.5k more than an Aero and 2.5k more than. Laser which with the Solo residuals make it a very good investment. Would probably be less than £500 a year, ignoring sails. 

On the other hand a ten year old Solution is only 3k
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Post Options Post Options   Quote CT249 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Oct 19 at 9:31am
Mark Bethwaite, FD Olympian and world champ in Solings and J/24s in their pomp, has used the same sail to win three world Masters titles - and Mark is not short of a dollar so can use whatever he wants.

Brett Bayer, pro Laser coach and Mark's rival for the title of most successful Laser Masters sailor of all time, gets 30 days of top-level sailing out of each sail. That's at least 5 top-level championship regattas.

Those guys have won more Laser Masters worlds than anyone, so they can't be wrong with their estimate of sail ageing.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Oct 19 at 10:24am
I bet Mark doesn't leave his sail unattached at the leach and flapping between races like proper Laser Sailors do though...
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Sussex Lad Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Oct 19 at 5:44pm
Important........important to what?

Important to it's second hand value? Probably yes. I would guess a bandit on a particular type of water would be more desirable, particularly with some older folk who want to hang on to some of the glory.

Important to a boats corrected time? There are certainly some massive bandits over a series on our piece of water. Conversely there are some slower boats, particularly among the junior classes that are never going to do well, their handicaps are wrong by a large margin on the south coast with a couple of knots tide and occasional big waves. Mind you that does ensure the young upstarts don't get any of the silverware which should rightly go to the adults. According to some calculation I did a few years ago, comparing average results for classes in different types of venue, the slower boats in some cases were out by a hundred + points.


Important to the sport generally? Yes, I think so. After the trials of a week at work, family and general life pressures most sailors REALLY look forward to a Sunday on the water racing. Some effort to make the PY system as accurate as possible is incredibly important otherwise the whole exercise becomes nothing more than a weird Escheresque animation. Maintaining power boats, learning OOD skills, laying the course, running the club, dragging folk out of bed to do their duties just so that some ever aging folk in boats can sail around in meaningless circles shouting rule numbers at each other. Meanwhile  some knobhead (not refering to anyone in particular) on the com watches from the balcony saying ".....of course, the only way to get a fair race is in class racing", using that argument to rationalise their complete inability to use their brains, suppress their fear and try something different........IMO clubs and the RYA should put as much effort into the quality of grassroots Sunday handicap sailing as is possible. I can't overstate this.

As Rupert and others have said (including myself in the past) Different published PY's for different waters, 4 or 5 categories maybe? It would certainly improve the current situation. Still not perfect because of different weather conditions but over a decent series fairer............Single/a few race handicap series are always going to be more of a lottery no matter how you juggle the figures.

A question to those in the know: How much does the RYA spend on PY improvements? How important is it to them? ........or are they also watching from the balcony?


Edited. punctuation and corrected "exorcised". Mind you, might have been a Freudian slip.


Edited by Sussex Lad - 26 Oct 19 at 7:38pm
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Post Options Post Options   Quote iGRF Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Oct 19 at 6:23pm
Thank you Sussex lad for a great answer and bringing the thread back on topic.
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