New Posts New Posts RSS Feed: So, just how important is a Boats PY yardstick?
  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Register Register  Login Login

So, just how important is a Boats PY yardstick?

 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <1 2829303132 34>
Author
eric_c View Drop Down
Groupie
Groupie


Joined: 21 Jan 18
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 55
Post Options Post Options   Quote eric_c Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Nov 19 at 4:16pm
When I started sailing, a Laser was 114 and an Ent 118
Now they're 1099 and 1119

Not much change really.

Back in last Century, Lasers were mostly sailed by younger fitter people who sailed them hard in conditions that suited the laser, when it was windy.
Now, we seem to have a lot more older people sailing Lasers who don't go out chasing Fireballs in F6.
Other boats have got faster. A modern Ent sail is not like 30 years ago.
Likewise Solos.
Lasers now have better controls, but that just means that people who are not strong/agile enough to deal with a 3:1 kicker can sail them. It doesn't mean the keen laser sailor is using any more kicker.

Compared with most other sports which attract middle aged people, there seems to be a lot of needy people obsessed with winning on this forum.
People who go out running or cycling or horseriding or playing tennis badminton, , even fairly competitively to the limit of their ability, seem to be able to enjoy their sport and not worry if they get beaten by people who are better than them, or who've invested more in equipment, or who the conditions suit on the day.
I know people who do amateur motorsport. They get out there with what they chose to run with and nobody thinks less of them for not winning.They know they've done OK if they're not too far behind the serious boys with expensive kit, and they enjoy the sport for its own sake, and for achieving or working towards their personal goals.
Some people seem to need a shiny cup or their name at the top of a list to validate spending £10k sailing around a pond.
Winning on PY is vastly over-rated. Winning on the water isn't everything, looking back over the year, most of the races that are memorable as enjoyable aren't the few that I've won.

The PY system is what it is.
If you don't like it, sail the same class as the people you care about.
Back to Top
ian.r.mcdonald View Drop Down
Far too distracted from work
Far too distracted from work


Joined: 24 Feb 06
Location: United Kingdom
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 426
Post Options Post Options   Quote ian.r.mcdonald Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Nov 19 at 4:35pm
I cant find the " I agree" button, so have posted instead.

Well said
Back to Top
tink View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more


Joined: 23 Jan 16
Location: North Hants
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 549
Post Options Post Options   Quote tink Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Nov 19 at 5:05pm



Edited by tink - 08 Nov 19 at 5:06pm
Tink
https://tinkboats.com

http://proasail.blogspot.com
Back to Top
tink View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more


Joined: 23 Jan 16
Location: North Hants
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 549
Post Options Post Options   Quote tink Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Nov 19 at 8:38pm
Lots of discussion about the Laser here so worth re linking CT249s excellent article on the Laser


Tink
https://tinkboats.com

http://proasail.blogspot.com
Back to Top
iGRF View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more
Avatar

Joined: 07 Mar 11
Location: Hythe
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 5973
Post Options Post Options   Quote iGRF Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Nov 19 at 9:38pm
And so we have it, the usual response and the thread peters out into banality and red herrings, but what does it matter?
It's not as if we have anything to worry about, the fact that in the ten years I've been paying attention the Optimist fleet has lost 100 boats from 447 in 2008 to 347 and the Toppers 120, this year just gone and if you collate the lot you find the numbers have dropped only 40% across those years, so it doesn't matter really we'll be alright with the remaining 60 percent for a while longer.. This all from the Y&Y stats, what's going on at PYAG might as well be at GCHQ the chance of any of us getting to find out.

So either we do something about it, or it'll keep on heading south.

But then just how important is a boats handicap to all this? Personally I think it's a trick that could be used to re invigorate the sport if handled with vision and vigour, but then what do I know, I'm only a semi retired action sport marketing type frustrated at lack of action to stave off the inevitable decline the modern culture is having on all outdoor action sports and how little is even being attempted.

Edited by iGRF - 08 Nov 19 at 9:41pm
Back to Top
tink View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more


Joined: 23 Jan 16
Location: North Hants
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 549
Post Options Post Options   Quote tink Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Nov 19 at 8:01am
Originally posted by iGRF

And so we have it, the usual response and the thread peters out into banality and red herrings, but what does it matter?
It's not as if we have anything to worry about, the fact that in the ten years I've been paying attention the Optimist fleet has lost 100 boats from 447 in 2008 to 347 and the Toppers 120, this year just gone and if you collate the lot you find the numbers have dropped only 40% across those years, so it doesn't matter really we'll be alright with the remaining 60 percent for a while longer.. This all from the Y&Y stats, what's going on at PYAG might as well be at GCHQ the chance of any of us getting to find out.

So either we do something about it, or it'll keep on heading south.

But then just how important is a boats handicap to all this? Personally I think it's a trick that could be used to re invigorate the sport if handled with vision and vigour, but then what do I know, I'm only a semi retired action sport marketing type frustrated at lack of action to stave off the inevitable decline the modern culture is having on all outdoor action sports and how little is even being attempted.

I donít think that PY has anything to do with the decline of boats attending national championships or a decline in dinghy sailing in general. Small boat sailing and Small boat racing are both, long and short term, on the increases https://www.rya.org.uk/SiteCollectionDocuments/sportsdevelopment/2018-watersports-study-exec-summary-final.pdf


Having the attended the last two Optimist nationals attendance will be a lot to do with venue and where people are willing to travel, including from over seas, there are also limits on the number entrants also which may be new. If you drew a trend line the decline would be much less. The Topper drop of is purely the growth of the Tera, the total Topper and Tera trend line is pretty stable and again venue has a lot to do with it. 


By the time someone has gone from beginner to racer at the level that they question the PY system they are pretty committed and unlikely to give up because of PY. Long term sailors are also not likely to suddenly get despondent with the system.


I donít think you yourself are actually that dissatisfied with the PY system just the fact that you feel where you sail the Laser has more generous handicap than it should. 


If the thread is petering out it simply that everyone has sail everything they can and are in general satisfied. As I said before name a sport where such a mix of people an use different equipment to compete against each other on more or less equal terms. 


Tink
https://tinkboats.com

http://proasail.blogspot.com
Back to Top
Pointing High View Drop Down
Newbie
Newbie


Joined: 19 May 19
Location: Swindon
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 3
Post Options Post Options   Quote Pointing High Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Nov 19 at 10:35am
It is a shame if this peters out, because his thread has actually been interesting for me, as a newby. What is apparent is that for all it's flaws, the PY system isn't so bad that it has any real support for change, and being based upon actual race returns, it does blend the actual physical characteristics of the class, with the sailors skill, which raises anomalies, for some classes, in some conditions.

If we take GRF's point there may well be a better system that would encourage more particiaption at club level, that would tie in with the point raised by eric-c, that the average person these days , wants to do some activity, but is not obsessed about endless competition, so maybe we do need to change club racing, to cater for the change in people, as well as the change in boats relative performance.

If one took any boat and created a potential performance yardstick based upon its naval architecture, and then applied this to a personal handicap system based upon the skill and experience of the sailor, then you might have a system where you are racing against the other boats, but you are also racing against yourself.  It would be a fair bit of work, getting something set up, but in these days of computers we should be able to produce something to get going with, on an experimental basis, we have the PY system, the Peaky system and the Great Lakes data, so there is a starting point. The actual answers will be within the range of race data that is already gathered, ie the best Laser sailors, and the worst Laser sailors will be the top and bottom of the skill levels as the boat is the same. 

The question  is would it improve the club racers participation, or do clubs need to do more to attract people to participate.
Back to Top
Sam.Spoons View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more


Joined: 07 Mar 12
Location: Manchester UK
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2836
Post Options Post Options   Quote Sam.Spoons Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Nov 19 at 10:54am
I have sailed in handicap and single class fleets since1965 in various dinghy and windsurfing classes. I've always sailed specific classes because I liked sailing them not because I think they are a PN bandit.

Tink makes some good points, not the least being that beginners are not concerned with handicaps/PN and their decision to race (or not) is to do with other factors.
Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"
Back to Top
Rupert View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more


Joined: 11 Aug 04
Location: Whitefriars sc
Online Status: Online
Posts: 8673
Post Options Post Options   Quote Rupert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Nov 19 at 4:31pm
People race because of other people, not handicaps or even boat types. If the craic is good, the racing will come, whether class or yardstick.
Firefly 2324, Lightning 130, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446
Back to Top
zeon View Drop Down
Far too distracted from work
Far too distracted from work


Joined: 20 Aug 16
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 315
Post Options Post Options   Quote zeon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Nov 19 at 4:54pm
Spot on , Rupert  Smile
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <1 2829303132 34>

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Bulletin Board Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 9.665y
Copyright ©2001-2010 Web Wiz
Change your personal settings, or read our privacy policy