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So, just how important is a Boats PY yardstick?

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iGRF View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote iGRF Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Oct 19 at 2:10pm
Clubs don't like to change from National Authority systems for lots of reasons, not least that the advice the very system gives is Rubbish.

We've been using it for three or four years now, and it finally gave us 'confidence' (system generated confidence that is)in two of our numbers, the Laser and the Contender, the two boats that win 90 percent of our races and what does it suggest? The Laser be even slower and the Contender even faster, to obviously try to counter act their relative performances against each other in their 'good' conditions. This would result in every other boat being prejudiced against, which is exactly what happens on a national scale.

Anecdotally we had a great period when I first got the Solution when my little group used to race pretty much scratch because the Laser and Solution were separated by just a point, now if we race pursuit style which we have to for lack of race box crew on wed afternoon, I now find myself racing alone a minute behind with very little chance of even getting into the mix. As luck would have it a few more Solutions are now around so i get a bit of class racing which is a bonus, but it doesn't change the annoyance that moving the Laser ever slower has caused a boat that inevitably has the fleet numbers anyway and if anything in hard fact with its' new systems and upgrades has become faster.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Dougaldog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Oct 19 at 2:14pm
And while you are at it iGRF, you could come up with a fairly easy rating on a 1 to 10, or a simple percentage factor of where that boat sits of a scale of sailability. That too shouldn't be beyond the clever minds - or even, just the practical minds that are out there.
If a boat is an unpleasant tippy ride downwind in breeze, or is difficult to recover -then mark it as such. On a small boat boat A might be a star, only to be a total disaster in a wind over tide situation off Hayling.
Sadly, that too won't happen......

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Post Options Post Options   Quote H2 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Oct 19 at 2:51pm
Not sure how many Farr's there are in the UK but I assumed there were a decent number - I mean we got a PY for the H2 in its second year and it has been adjusted based upon results. I am sure that its a case of asking for a PY which is estimated in the first year and then confirmed in the second year but you do need to get people out racing them and then ensure that the results are submitted to the RYA by the club.

Your desire to help this lad is admirable, but it does come back to the point that Kaz made which is that if the lad has decided he does not want (for whatever reason) to sail one of the larger more established classes because the Farr is a better boat for him, his size, experience, where he sails, colour of the hull....whatever, then he has to accept that when you pick a smaller class it is probably going to have a sub-standard PY for a while so you better make sure you love the boat and love sailing it!
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Post Options Post Options   Quote iGRF Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Oct 19 at 2:57pm
Originally posted by H2

but it does come back to the point that Kaz made which is that if the lad has decided he does not want (for whatever reason) to sail one of the larger more established classes because the Farr is a better boat for him, his size, experience, where he sails, colour of the hull....whatever, then he has to accept that when you pick a smaller class it is probably going to have a sub-standard PY for a while so you better make sure you love the boat and love sailing it!


Which in any other world would be classed as discriminatory, or anti competitive even. In fact I'm sure back in a fit of angry picque I did go as far as to get legal advice on, which was that I had a fair point, but not being a player manufacturer with an axe to grind or product to promote, why was I even considering the expense.

It remains however an area of very bad exposure for the powers that be.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Fatboi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Oct 19 at 3:17pm
The fact that the wind, venue, tide, course and other boats competing skew the performance of any boat means that you will never have a perfect system to PY race in.

There are so many variables in sailing, boat designers in the same classes have adapted boats to try and exploit these factors in search of the perfect boat for a set venue and expected wind condition to win. This alone shows PY will never be truly accurate. 

If someone is handicap racing and prides their day purely on results, they will sooner or eventually be disappointed when they are beaten by a boat better suited to the conditions/course of the day. Or one that is just sailed better. 

With an open mind and drawing your own comparisons of the day/competition/boats around you, you can still enjoy handicap racing. It serves a purpose but in my mind should not be taken as the be all and end all. 
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Do Different Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Oct 19 at 3:22pm
Re. Kid with Farr.
If all the grown ups didnít behave like kids with toys maybe the kids would stand a chance of acquiring a realistic perception of handicap PY racing.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote H2 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Oct 19 at 4:07pm
Originally posted by Do Different

Re. Kid with Farr.
If all the grown ups didnít behave like kids with toys maybe the kids would stand a chance of acquiring a realistic perception of handicap PY racing.

If the grown ups followed their hearts rather than their heads then perhaps smaller classes would have a fair PY  Tongue
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Rupert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Oct 19 at 4:10pm
Really don't understand how it is discrimination for a class which has completed say 100 races in a season to have a less accurate yardstick than one which has sailed 2000. It's just numbers.

As for the Laser, well, it is 30ish years older than the Solution, heavier(?), Worse rig, less powerful, narrower and according to Solution owners the solution is an all round superior boat. But somehow no faster?

Edited by Rupert - 23 Oct 19 at 4:13pm
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Post Options Post Options   Quote zeon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Oct 19 at 4:56pm
Rupert. Stop bringing reason and logical arguments to the party  LOL LOL
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Sam.Spoons Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Oct 19 at 5:20pm
Solution is currently 1089 against Laser 1099, a fairly insignificant 0.9% difference. But a Laser sail measured by the same system as a Solution sail is probably less than Ĺ metre smaller, 5kg won't make a significant difference so the main differences are waterline length, Solution will be a fair bit shorter (427-390 overall but with a slightly more plumb bow the WL is probably about 20-25cm shorter than a Laser) and beam/sitting out power which is 38cm wider, a significant advantage in a breeze but, as it comes with more wetted area, actually a disadvantage in sub-planing conditions. At inland clubs we mostly race in sub planing conditions, and when it is breezy we probably only get planing for 20-30% of the race which all goes to make WL the biggest single factor IMO. I think the Solution does well to overcome a 10" disadvantage (yes, length really does matter LOL).
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