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So, just how important is a Boats PY yardstick?

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Post Options Post Options   Quote tink Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Nov 19 at 7:00am
Originally posted by CT249

Originally posted by Rupert

Surely IMS wasn't really interested in fresh water calculations?

.

The Great Lakes has a huge offshore racing scene, with races of 200-500 miles that get up to 300+ starters and IMS was the main rating rule for some time. The IMS system was largely funded by Pat Haggerty, who based his sailing on the Great Lakes. 

The IMS and IOR rules required measurers to specify whether the boat was measured on salt or fresh water.  The fact that they went to that sort of length and still couldn't find a magic accurate rating rule shows how unlikely it is that a really accurating dinghy rule could be developed.

Which is why a handicap system based on actual races is about as good as it is going to get. Using race results is about as good as we are going to get until we all have little trackers to measure our true speed, VMG etc etc. 

It has to be remembered we are a relatively minority sport 216,000ish small boat racers in the U.K., and not sure what percentage of those are regularly racing handicap races.


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Post Options Post Options   Quote CT249 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Nov 19 at 11:05am
Originally posted by 423zero

Look at the problems inventor of submarine had Admiralty tried there best to convince him they had plenty of ships that could sink

I'm not sure what "inventor" you were thinking about, but the Admiralty had by far the world's largest sub fleet at the start of WW1, and had been leading the way in their design. 

The point is that the tales about stuffed shirts pompously holding back progress are largely BS, as are so many such stories.  There seems to be some sort of compulsion these days to throw sh*t at people instead of researching why they did what they did. The same seems to apply to many complaints about handicapping! Tongue
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Post Options Post Options   Quote A2Z Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Nov 19 at 11:58am
Originally posted by CT249


Originally posted by 423zero

Look at the problems inventor of submarine had Admiralty tried there best to convince him they had plenty of ships that could sink

I'm not sure what "inventor" you were thinking about, but the Admiralty had by far the world's largest sub fleet at the start of WW1, and had been leading the way in their design. 
The point is that the tales about stuffed shirts pompously holding back progress are largely BS, as are so many such stories.  There seems to be some sort of compulsion these days to throw sh*t at people instead of researching why they did what they did. The same seems to apply to many complaints about handicapping! Tongue

It’s not getting them to sink that’s the problem, it’s making sure they surface again..

Apparently the First Sea Lord at the time of WW1 said that submarines were “underhand, unfair and damned un-English” and submariners should be hanged as pirates. In response, RN submarines started to fly the Jolly Roger, a practice that continues today.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Nov 19 at 12:42pm
Originally posted by A2Z


Apparently the First Sea Lord at the time of WW1 said that submarines were “underhand, unfair and damned un-English” and submariners should be hanged as pirates.

There doesn't seem to be any actual evidence for this statement, usually attributed to Wilson as controller of the Navy, not first Sea Lord, and even if it was made it is evident that it in no way influenced RN policy.

Edited by JimC - 05 Nov 19 at 12:53pm
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Post Options Post Options   Quote 423zero Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Nov 19 at 1:02pm
Someone made a short film using verbatim dialogue from minutes taken during first formal representation of submarines to Admiralty, very amusing, will try to find link to it, lasts about an hour.
This meeting was in the 1800's.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote 423zero Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Nov 19 at 8:58pm
Can't find link, but from what I have come across, programme was probably 1700's,Sub's were quite advanced in 1800's.

Edited by 423zero - 05 Nov 19 at 8:59pm
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Post Options Post Options   Quote CT249 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Nov 19 at 11:19pm
That film sounds interesting.  As Jim says, there evidence indicates that the author of the "pirate" claim was Wilson, who from being a conservative was actually the man who ordered the RN's first submarines. The other issue is that he was probably perfectly correct - submarine warfare against merchant ships as it was normally carried out WAS a breach of both international law and national regulations and therefore could have been piracy. The fact that a man who was a driver of new technology and who was possibly correct on the law is seen as a blimpish luddite may say a lot about our tendency to denigrate other people.

To bring it back to dinghies - the first RN Admiral to try a submarine (as early as 1886) was Charles Beresford, an early centreboard catboat racer who was also involved in the Gillingham Punts, the amazingly fast and advanced planing hull self-draining dinghies of the 1890s. And the First Sea Lord when the RN had the world's biggest sub fleet was Battenburg, another 1800s catboat racer. So it all goes to show that even in the 1800s, dinghy sailors led the way!  :-)


Edited by CT249 - 05 Nov 19 at 11:21pm
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Post Options Post Options   Quote tink Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Nov 19 at 6:41am
That Gillingham Punt sounds like a right bandit 

Smile

Any pictures anywhere 
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Post Options Post Options   Quote 423zero Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Nov 19 at 7:02am
https://collections.rmg.co.uk/collections/objects/114554.html
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Post Options Post Options   Quote CT249 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Nov 19 at 9:03am
Originally posted by tink

That Gillingham Punt sounds like a right bandit 

Smile

Any pictures anywhere 

Here y'go.



The reports make it pretty clear that it planed. In many respects, both design-wise and in terms of its place in society, I'd reckon that this boat in particular was THE boat that was further ahead of its time than any dinghy in history. Extremely successful, self draining, flat run, home built, hard chine, high aspect CB, even experimental tufts on the sails - and sailed by the absolutely kick-ass grrrl, Maud Wyllie.


C'mon Tink, build one. Imagine the yardstick they'd give an 1890s design.....at least until they saw it sail. Smile



Edited by CT249 - 06 Nov 19 at 9:05am
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