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So, just how important is a Boats PY yardstick?

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Post Options Post Options   Quote tink Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Nov 19 at 6:33pm
Where are you getting your numbers, donít reflect what I am seeing. Are they worldwide sales?
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Post Options Post Options   Quote CarbonCopy3459 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Nov 19 at 6:41pm
Quite. No new Lasers at our club (the only place I feel I can speak about with any confidence) but lots of new Aeros and Zeros.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote eric_c Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Nov 19 at 7:39pm
Originally posted by CarbonCopy3459

Coming back to the 'drift' of the Laser PY, ten years ago all the handy 2 handed helms had a laser for when they had no crew. Now, at our club, every single one has an Aero or D Zero instead. The keen single handers ditto. The Laser seems to have become an entry level single hander and after a couple of years of practice people largely move on to an *ero. The drop in average standard of sailor is reflected in the results at (our) club level and in the PY.

...


The Laser was 1078 in 2003, 1080 in 2010, 1090 in 2015 and 1098 last year.
So the drift downwards would seem not to be influenced by the 'ero.

Possibly the average age of the boats and helms has more to do with it, I recall the numbers going through 100k when I was at school, there are a lot of old boats around and a lot of  'Masters' sailing them. Maybe they are statistically more likely to be sailed on different water than they used to be?
Maybe the correct PY number is just always uncertain by more than 2% anyway?

Personally at my club, I don't think they're an easy boat to win trophies with.
If you think they're a bandit, just buy one, they are not expensive.

BTW over the same time frame, the Solo seems to have gone from 1155 to 1143, 1% in the other direction. Has the average Solo racing improved? Maybe.
But 3% very often won't shift you many places in most club PY races.

Longer term, ISTR the Solo was 122 in the early 80s and the Laser was 114?
Laser 93.4% of Solo, now 96%.
But in those days many Solos were racing with much lower technology than today.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Rupert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Nov 19 at 10:28pm
Are Solos and Lasers regularly sailed against each other? If so, could it be that the increase in Solo speed is forcing the Laser to look slower?

Mind, does it make any difference to the stats if boats share races? Always confuses me, that one.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote eric_c Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Nov 19 at 5:58am
Originally posted by Rupert

Are Solos and Lasers regularly sailed against each other? If so, could it be that the increase in Solo speed is forcing the Laser to look slower?

Mind, does it make any difference to the stats if boats share races? Always confuses me, that one.

A Solo is not much slower than a Laser in some conditions, so a Solo getting a good start and taking a good route up the beat can easily be among the Lasers. Or if you've got 5 lasers, it takes time for them to all round a mark, enabling a Solo to catch up.
A PY race is not a time trial unless the boats are well spread.
The solitary fast boat gets away, the pack slow each other down, the slow boat is just behind the pack.

One influence is that ISTM races are generally getting shorter?
More compact courses, more interaction, faster boats less able to break away?
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Post Options Post Options   Quote tink Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Nov 19 at 6:07am
Originally posted by Rupert

Are Solos and Lasers regularly sailed against each other? If so, could it be that the increase in Solo speed is forcing the Laser to look slower?

Mind, does it make any difference to the stats if boats share races? Always confuses me, that one.


A very interesting point. At my current club the Laser is in slow fleet but in others it was in the medium fleet. How does the PY calculation allow for the fact that they are not mixed fleets. Being the fastest boat it the fleet has to be an advantage, clean air etc.

Just shows what a complex job it is.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote tink Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Nov 19 at 6:13am
Originally posted by eric_c


Originally posted by Rupert

Are Solos and Lasers regularly sailed against each other? If so, could it be that the increase in Solo speed is forcing the Laser to look slower?

Mind, does it make any difference to the stats if boats share races? Always confuses me, that one.
A Solo is not much slower than a Laser in some conditions, so a Solo getting a good start and taking a good route up the beat can easily be among the Lasers. Or if you've got 5 lasers, it takes time for them to all round a mark, enabling a Solo to catch up.
A PY race is not a time trial unless the boats are well spread.
The solitary fast boat gets away, the pack slow each other down, the slow boat is just behind the pack.
One influence is that ISTM races are generally getting shorter?
More compact courses, more interaction, faster boats less able to break away?


ISTM ?
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Post Options Post Options   Quote jeffers Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Nov 19 at 8:01am
Originally posted by tink

Originally posted by Rupert

Are Solos and Lasers regularly sailed against each other? If so, could it be that the increase in Solo speed is forcing the Laser to look slower?

Mind, does it make any difference to the stats if boats share races? Always confuses me, that one.


A very interesting point. At my current club the Laser is in slow fleet but in others it was in the medium fleet. How does the PY calculation allow for the fact that they are not mixed fleets. Being the fastest boat it the fleet has to be an advantage, clean air etc.

Just shows what a complex job it is.

Definitely, at a couple of the Winter Events the PY splits are different. At Grafham the D-Zero is the slowest boat in the medium fleet. As a result very difficult to get a good lane and clear air and the boat rarely troubles the chocolates.

At the Oxford Blue it was the fastest boat in the 'fleet' and as a result clear air and much better showing (certainly within the fleet).
Paul
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Mark Aged 42 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Nov 19 at 12:13pm
Originally posted by Rupert

Are Solos and Lasers regularly sailed against each other? If so, could it be that the increase in Solo speed is forcing the Laser to look slower?

I regularly race my Laser with Solos. 
I would say in light winds the Solo is a faster boat, possibly because the fully battened sail is more stable than the Lasers rag. On Sunday I regularly had no power as my boat rolled around on the wake of others, whereas the Solos remained powered up.
When the wind gets up, the Laser is possibly quicker, especially if there is broad reach which allows a Laser to really go quick, assuming a lot of activity from the helmsman.
So, same old conclusion - some you win, some you lose.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote tink Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Nov 19 at 6:34pm
Originally posted by Mark Aged 42

Originally posted by Rupert

Are Solos and Lasers regularly sailed against each other? If so, could it be that the increase in Solo speed is forcing the Laser to look slower?

I regularly race my Laser with Solos. 
I would say in light winds the Solo is a faster boat, possibly because the fully battened sail is more stable than the Lasers rag. On Sunday I regularly had no power as my boat rolled around on the wake of others, whereas the Solos remained powered up.
When the wind gets up, the Laser is possibly quicker, especially if there is broad reach which allows a Laser to really go quick, assuming a lot of activity from the helmsman.
So, same old conclusion - some you win, some you lose.

Fully agree, Solos are extremely had to beat in light winds. 
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