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So, just how important is a Boats PY yardstick? |
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eric_c
Far too distracted from work Joined: 21 Jan 18 Online Status: Offline Posts: 382 |
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Topic: So, just how important is a Boats PY yardstick? Posted: 08 Nov 19 at 4:16pm |
When I started sailing, a Laser was 114 and an Ent 118 Now they're 1099 and 1119 Not much change really. Back in last Century, Lasers were mostly sailed by younger fitter people who sailed them hard in conditions that suited the laser, when it was windy. Now, we seem to have a lot more older people sailing Lasers who don't go out chasing Fireballs in F6. Other boats have got faster. A modern Ent sail is not like 30 years ago. Likewise Solos. Lasers now have better controls, but that just means that people who are not strong/agile enough to deal with a 3:1 kicker can sail them. It doesn't mean the keen laser sailor is using any more kicker. Compared with most other sports which attract middle aged people, there seems to be a lot of needy people obsessed with winning on this forum. People who go out running or cycling or horseriding or playing tennis badminton, , even fairly competitively to the limit of their ability, seem to be able to enjoy their sport and not worry if they get beaten by people who are better than them, or who've invested more in equipment, or who the conditions suit on the day. I know people who do amateur motorsport. They get out there with what they chose to run with and nobody thinks less of them for not winning.They know they've done OK if they're not too far behind the serious boys with expensive kit, and they enjoy the sport for its own sake, and for achieving or working towards their personal goals. Some people seem to need a shiny cup or their name at the top of a list to validate spending £10k sailing around a pond. Winning on PY is vastly over-rated. Winning on the water isn't everything, looking back over the year, most of the races that are memorable as enjoyable aren't the few that I've won. The PY system is what it is. If you don't like it, sail the same class as the people you care about.
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ian.r.mcdonald
Far too distracted from work Joined: 24 Feb 06 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 440 |
Post Options Quote Reply Posted: 08 Nov 19 at 4:35pm |
I cant find the " I agree" button, so have posted instead.
Well said |
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tink
Really should get out more Joined: 23 Jan 16 Location: North Hants Online Status: Offline Posts: 788 |
Post Options Quote Reply Posted: 08 Nov 19 at 5:05pm |
Edited by tink - 08 Nov 19 at 5:06pm |
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Tink
https://tinkboats.com http://proasail.blogspot.com |
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tink
Really should get out more Joined: 23 Jan 16 Location: North Hants Online Status: Offline Posts: 788 |
Post Options Quote Reply Posted: 08 Nov 19 at 8:38pm |
Lots of discussion about the Laser here so worth re linking CT249s excellent article on the Laser
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Tink
https://tinkboats.com http://proasail.blogspot.com |
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iGRF
Really should get out more Joined: 07 Mar 11 Location: Hythe Online Status: Offline Posts: 6496 |
Post Options Quote Reply Posted: 08 Nov 19 at 9:38pm |
And so we have it, the usual response and the thread peters out into banality and red herrings, but what does it matter?
It's not as if we have anything to worry about, the fact that in the ten years I've been paying attention the Optimist fleet has lost 100 boats from 447 in 2008 to 347 and the Toppers 120, this year just gone and if you collate the lot you find the numbers have dropped only 40% across those years, so it doesn't matter really we'll be alright with the remaining 60 percent for a while longer.. This all from the Y&Y stats, what's going on at PYAG might as well be at GCHQ the chance of any of us getting to find out. So either we do something about it, or it'll keep on heading south. But then just how important is a boats handicap to all this? Personally I think it's a trick that could be used to re invigorate the sport if handled with vision and vigour, but then what do I know, I'm only a semi retired action sport marketing type frustrated at lack of action to stave off the inevitable decline the modern culture is having on all outdoor action sports and how little is even being attempted. Edited by iGRF - 08 Nov 19 at 9:41pm |
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tink
Really should get out more Joined: 23 Jan 16 Location: North Hants Online Status: Offline Posts: 788 |
Post Options Quote Reply Posted: 09 Nov 19 at 8:01am |
I don’t think that PY has anything to do with the decline of boats attending national championships or a decline in dinghy sailing in general. Small boat sailing and Small boat racing are both, long and short term, on the increases https://www.rya.org.uk/SiteCollectionDocuments/sportsdevelopment/2018-watersports-study-exec-summary-final.pdf Having the attended the last two Optimist nationals attendance will be a lot to do with venue and where people are willing to travel, including from over seas, there are also limits on the number entrants also which may be new. If you drew a trend line the decline would be much less. The Topper drop of is purely the growth of the Tera, the total Topper and Tera trend line is pretty stable and again venue has a lot to do with it. By the time someone has gone from beginner to racer at the level that they question the PY system they are pretty committed and unlikely to give up because of PY. Long term sailors are also not likely to suddenly get despondent with the system. I don’t think you yourself are actually that dissatisfied with the PY system just the fact that you feel where you sail the Laser has more generous handicap than it should. If the thread is petering out it simply that everyone has sail everything they can and are in general satisfied. As I said before name a sport where such a mix of people an use different equipment to compete against each other on more or less equal terms. |
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Tink
https://tinkboats.com http://proasail.blogspot.com |
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Pointing High
Newbie Joined: 19 May 19 Location: Swindon Online Status: Offline Posts: 7 |
Post Options Quote Reply Posted: 09 Nov 19 at 10:35am |
It is a shame if this peters out, because his thread has actually been interesting for me, as a newby. What is apparent is that for all it's flaws, the PY system isn't so bad that it has any real support for change, and being based upon actual race returns, it does blend the actual physical characteristics of the class, with the sailors skill, which raises anomalies, for some classes, in some conditions.
If we take GRF's point there may well be a better system that would encourage more particiaption at club level, that would tie in with the point raised by eric-c, that the average person these days , wants to do some activity, but is not obsessed about endless competition, so maybe we do need to change club racing, to cater for the change in people, as well as the change in boats relative performance. If one took any boat and created a potential performance yardstick based upon its naval architecture, and then applied this to a personal handicap system based upon the skill and experience of the sailor, then you might have a system where you are racing against the other boats, but you are also racing against yourself. It would be a fair bit of work, getting something set up, but in these days of computers we should be able to produce something to get going with, on an experimental basis, we have the PY system, the Peaky system and the Great Lakes data, so there is a starting point. The actual answers will be within the range of race data that is already gathered, ie the best Laser sailors, and the worst Laser sailors will be the top and bottom of the skill levels as the boat is the same. The question is would it improve the club racers participation, or do clubs need to do more to attract people to participate.
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Sam.Spoons
Really should get out more Joined: 07 Mar 12 Location: Manchester UK Online Status: Offline Posts: 3398 |
Post Options Quote Reply Posted: 09 Nov 19 at 10:54am |
I have sailed in handicap and single class fleets since1965 in various dinghy and windsurfing classes. I've always sailed specific classes because I liked sailing them not because I think they are a PN bandit.
Tink makes some good points, not the least being that beginners are not concerned with handicaps/PN and their decision to race (or not) is to do with other factors.
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Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish" |
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Rupert
Really should get out more Joined: 11 Aug 04 Location: Whitefriars sc Online Status: Offline Posts: 8956 |
Post Options Quote Reply Posted: 09 Nov 19 at 4:31pm |
People race because of other people, not handicaps or even boat types. If the craic is good, the racing will come, whether class or yardstick.
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Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686
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zeon
Far too distracted from work Joined: 20 Aug 16 Online Status: Offline Posts: 316 |
Post Options Quote Reply Posted: 09 Nov 19 at 4:54pm |
Spot on , Rupert
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