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So, just how important is a Boats PY yardstick?

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CT249 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote CT249 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Nov 19 at 9:08am
Originally posted by 423zero

https://collections.rmg.co.uk/collections/objects/114554.html

Oooh, THAT is a nice find of yours!  Obviously a Wyllie sketch, with what looks like Sea Serpent on the right and one of the original cruder boats top left.  Clap Clap
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Post Options Post Options   Quote 423zero Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Nov 19 at 9:13am
Probably someone on CVRDA owns one of these.

What number does Fuller system generate?

Edited by 423zero - 06 Nov 19 at 9:24am
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Sam.Spoons Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Nov 19 at 9:35am
Originally posted by 423zero

Probably someone on CVRDA owns one of these.

What number does Fuller system generate?

<insufficient data error>  Wink
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Post Options Post Options   Quote tink Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Nov 19 at 8:13pm
Originally posted by CT249

Originally posted by tink

That Gillingham Punt sounds like a right bandit 

Smile

Any pictures anywhere 

Here y'go.



The reports make it pretty clear that it planed. In many respects, both design-wise and in terms of its place in society, I'd reckon that this boat in particular was THE boat that was further ahead of its time than any dinghy in history. Extremely successful, self draining, flat run, home built, hard chine, high aspect CB, even experimental tufts on the sails - and sailed by the absolutely kick-ass grrrl, Maud Wyllie.


C'mon Tink, build one. Imagine the yardstick they'd give an 1890s design.....at least until they saw it sail. Smile

Thanks, sounds like an awesome class of boats, well ahead of its time. As for building it is such a pity there isn’t an accurate way to establish a handicap for new boats, might start a thread about how we achieve that. 
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Sam.Spoons Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Nov 19 at 8:36pm
Originally posted by tink

As for building it is such a pity there isn’t an accurate way to establish a handicap for new boats, might start a thread about how we achieve that. 

Brilliant Idea, why has nobody thought of it before?  Wink
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Post Options Post Options   Quote CT249 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Nov 19 at 9:57pm
Doesn't it depend on what we call "accurate"???  The Peaky number works quite well. A naval architect and designer of successful Cherubs down here has also worked out a similar formula but if I recall correctly, but it includes calcs for spinnakers, traps, etc.

But the problem is that like similar simple systems for yachts or multis, there will always be some bandits and some losers, and identifying and correcting for that is a huge problem. We see lots of illogical abuse now - what would it be like if correcting the ratings for bandits and losers involved not only calculating their on-the-water performance, but also over-ruling the "rating" at the same time?

The funny thing is that the loudest voice against the system and for a "Peaky rule" here is the person who wants the yardsticks adjusted to go the opposite way that Peaky's formula reckons they should. That alone may be a good example of the issues. And of course, the first time someone sits down and tries to create a rule beater we'll see a whole new set of issues.


Edited by CT249 - 06 Nov 19 at 9:59pm
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Post Options Post Options   Quote iGRF Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Nov 19 at 10:31pm
Originally posted by CT249


]The funny thing is that the loudest voice against the system and for a "Peaky rule" here is the person who wants the yardsticks adjusted to go the opposite way that Peaky's formula reckons they should.


If you could see beyond the corks around your bush hat now and again, you'd see that the Peaky/Fuller no has the Laser exactly where it was when the formula was drawn up around 5 years ago, before it got 'varied' by I assume the influence of our "great lakes' with a small g series.

If it were down to me it would have an additional calculation that fixed the Laser at 1000 and the formula pivoted everything about it. Logically something has to be fixed and stable, the way things are here the system is now feeding off it's own errors and leaving the minor classes aside.

Anyway aside from that I did enjoy reading your piece on the historical women of the 1890's Raters, well researched, I couldn't believe it was the same hysterical convict that posts rubbish here, well done for that at least, very good.

Edited by iGRF - 06 Nov 19 at 10:36pm
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Post Options Post Options   Quote 423zero Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Nov 19 at 10:57pm
Yes, I read that too, very good.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote tink Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Nov 19 at 6:53am
Originally posted by iGRF

Originally posted by CT249


]The funny thing is that the loudest voice against the system and for a "Peaky rule" here is the person who wants the yardsticks adjusted to go the opposite way that Peaky's formula reckons they should.


If you could see beyond the corks around your bush hat now and again, you'd see that the Peaky/Fuller no has the Laser exactly where it was when the formula was drawn up around 5 years ago, before it got 'varied' by I assume the influence of our "great lakes' with a small g series.

If it were down to me it would have an additional calculation that fixed the Laser at 1000 and the formula pivoted everything about it. Logically something has to be fixed and stable, the way things are here the system is now feeding off it's own errors and leaving the minor classes aside.

Anyway aside from that I did enjoy reading your piece on the historical women of the 1890's Raters, well researched, I couldn't believe it was the same hysterical convict that posts rubbish here, well done for that at least, very good.

This fixation with fixing the Laser would serve no real purpose 

Many clubs have split fleets and so Laser not really of interest to someone in the fast handicap fleet
Some clubs still have Laser fleets so again very little interest to many.
As you say there is an extra calculation generating the PY which adds extra error (rounding up etc not the maths) 

Further inaccuracies would develop because the the Laser speed has no relationship with anything real so there would be small errors in the corrected time. In time if the laser dropped from the Olympics, kids take up Aero or whatever and the Laser is sailed by newbies and old blokes, in old boats the laser will ‘slow down’ 

 
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Post Options Post Options   Quote iGRF Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Nov 19 at 10:37am
Originally posted by tink


This fixation with fixing the Laser would serve no real purpose


Other than stabilising the world of those of us that buy boats with a performance level similar to the Laser but nicer to sail who then compete week in week out with pals in their laser, only to find after a couple of years that is no longer possible because of forces beyond our immediate control.

It is also illogical to those who don't even try and understand what the handicap system is, how it works, why it works the way it does and or why it is the only system at our disposal, most of whom cannot understand why a boat that has been around for years and is physically faster over the water now than at any time in its past, is being rated as slower and slower each year for the past five years. This is precisely one of the reasons folk get so mad and confused at the illogical nature of the system.

So no, I fundamentally disagree and believe that until one boat is fixed the anomalies will go on getting worse and worse as the system thrashes around it's statistics with nothing fixed in any sense of actual reality.
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