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So, just how important is a Boats PY yardstick?

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Rupert View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Rupert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Oct 19 at 6:23pm
But everyone complains how bad and inefficient the Laser sail is, so size isn't all we should look at. Maybe hard sails on slow boats are just window dressing? After all, the Aero is short and is quicker with a soft sail.
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ian.r.mcdonald View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote ian.r.mcdonald Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Oct 19 at 6:42pm
One important thing is that if a club tweaks the PY to reflect local conditions, the poor guy that does the changing has to wear a false beard to hide from the crowds of people telling him where he has gone wrong.

The RYA py may not be perfect, but a club can blame them instead of having the endless discussions each weekend
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Post Options Post Options   Quote GarethT Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Oct 19 at 7:25pm
PY racing can never be much more than a bit of fun.

The Europe and Radial have pretty much the same PY. When the radials have enough power to get up to speed their extra half a metre of length makes it hard to hold them, but the minute they are over powered the Europe pulls away with ease.

Over the season it averages out I'm sure, but is any given race a fair reflection of how the helms sailed relative to each other? Probably not.

Really enjoyed racing them at the weekend though.

Edited by GarethT - 23 Oct 19 at 7:26pm
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Sam.Spoons Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Oct 19 at 7:25pm
It's sill better/fairer if the club does adjust though, a Musto can sail to it number on an open water W/L course but struggles badly on a gusty inland pond racing round the cans.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote iGRF Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Oct 19 at 8:58pm
After a while, we eventually get to know, what's what, some boats work inland, some work better on the sea. One thing the increased handicap advantage the Laser now has on the sea has put it back in the game on inland water, testament to the excellent design from all those years back that it still remains the tool it is these many years later.

But none of this is relevant to what I'm trying to suggest.

Waterline length is more important than sail type or size imv What makes the Laser is the 420 bit, not the 7.whatever the sail is. The sail bit is effectively varied by the wind strenght anyway. That in turn is varied by the ratio of the body weight and the beam in righting moment againts the sail size. Waterline length however makes the difference upwind and it also makes the difference in planing in waves of a certain length, predominant in the English Channel.

So that formula, that combines the various relationships between waterline length, crew weight, sail size and righting moment will always be the same, so should be the initial recipe for any decision regarding performance. What then happens due to helm input can and perhaps should be quantified by data, but for the sake of logic and understanding should be secondary to the actual physical facts.

So the 'handicap' should always be a two part calculation, the boats potential, over the data provided by it's regional and conditional useage. Rather than what we have at the moment, data driven by inland water over coastal and using the lame suggestion that clubs should bear the burden of varying the system to suit their water.

Edited by iGRF - 23 Oct 19 at 9:00pm
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Sam.Spoons Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Oct 19 at 9:43pm
WL also makes a big difference offwind if you can't get planing as it sets an upper limit on displacement speed.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote CT249 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Oct 19 at 9:56pm
Originally posted by iGRF

Originally posted by H2

but it does come back to the point that Kaz made which is that if the lad has decided he does not want (for whatever reason) to sail one of the larger more established classes because the Farr is a better boat for him, his size, experience, where he sails, colour of the hull....whatever, then he has to accept that when you pick a smaller class it is probably going to have a sub-standard PY for a while so you better make sure you love the boat and love sailing it!


Which in any other world would be classed as discriminatory, or anti competitive even. In fact I'm sure back in a fit of angry picque I did go as far as to get legal advice on, which was that I had a fair point, but not being a player manufacturer with an axe to grind or product to promote, why was I even considering the expense.

It remains however an area of very bad exposure for the powers that be.

Actually, many other sports are far more subjective or "anti competitive" in the way they assess and handicap gear and players. Look at the "success handicaps" in motor racing, where top cars will be loaded up with lead to slow them down in some very successful big-budget categories. In the BTCC, since 2015 the leading car has had to go into each day's racing with 75kg of ballast, to slow it down.  Le Mans GTE cars have similar rules.  Or check out horse race handicapping, or local bicycle racing where a subjective decision can move you up or down a grade. Then there are events like the Tour de France where the organisers can shape the entire course to suit the home-grown heroes, or salary caps in other sports.

The entire system of grading in sport can be seen as anti-competitive, because normally the guys who finish last in the top grade are vastly better players than the guys who finish first in the bottom grade, and yet the rules allow the latter to win more than the former. 

I tend to think that a lawsuit based on PY would have been laughed out of court since it appears that the issue is that certain individuals, some of them quite inexperienced and inexpert, have a subjective opinion that does not agree with the maths involved. 

The PY lawsuit with legs would be the one where the PY volunteers launch defamation cases against some of their critics.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote CT249 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Oct 19 at 10:14pm
Originally posted by tink

Donít ply golf so donít know how their system works but personal handicap seams to be the way to go. Everyone wins. The Championship sailors are put under more pressure and have to try harder, the novices are encouraged and donít get disheartened. The great thing is you get a gauge of how you are doing. My club runs a personal handicap Wednesday night series per suit race. It is good to see how you personal handicap changes each week. 

I think it would actually revive dinghy sailing because with the right mind set you could race older uncompetitive boats and not feel so penalised as you can see your relative performance improve. 

The champion sailors don't often win because they can't realistically get much better. Day in, day out they tend to sail at 99.XXXX%.  So what happens is that every time they race, they know that their personal handicap result is down to whether the guys who sail at 30-80% happen to sail at 31-81% that day, or whether it's a day when the wind favours the slower sailors for various reasons.  The champion's results are therefore not down to what they do, but what the other sailors do, which makes the handicap result meaningless.  The champion may therefore just as well go out and train rather than race.

The person with the older uncompetitive boat also finds that if they sail it perfectly, they can be wopped on personal handicap by someone with a brand new rocketship of the same class, who finishes 10 minutes back instead of their normal 15 minutes back. Again, the issue is that the top sailors tend to be consistently good and cannot easily improve, whereas slow sailors tend to be inconsistent and can improve and therefore the result is out of the top sailors' hands.

I'm race officer for a club with an Olympic silver medallist, who just defended his world title. On both PY and personal handicap, he gets hammered week after week by sailors who can't even enter a championship with a realistic hope of getting around the course inside the time limit. The same applies to the two sailors in the club who got third in their world titles this year. That's dealing with a situation where the craft are of radically different design to the rest of the fleet, but it still shows that even being on the world's podium is not enough to allow you to win if the handicaps are tough enough.

Personal handicapping, including personal handicapping pursuits, are great for the beginners and slower sailors, but they are problematic for top sailors. That's fine since top sailors shouldn't (IMHO) be aiming to win club races, but it's something to consider.


Edited by CT249 - 23 Oct 19 at 10:14pm
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Post Options Post Options   Quote iGRF Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Oct 19 at 10:34pm
Nobody cares, or should be even bothered what 'top sailors' think, this is about trying to stem the flow,, stop the rot, bring more folk into the sport than are leaving it. If all there is, is handicap racing, then it has to be improved, made less irritating, irrational, illogical. Top sailors don't drive club racing, club racing is where folk at the beginning or the end of their careers end up and the game should be that the end guys should encourage the new young guys, not make it stupidly impossible just because they;ve become bad losers.

So Henry in his new Farr 3.7 should be encouraged, not discouraged, the old Fart hasbeen in his 3.7 can make whatever decision he wants, it's not about him either.

What it's about, is keeping the sport interesting and accessible to a generation that want it now and want it to be easy and more understandable.

Because they're snowflakes.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote CT249 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Oct 19 at 3:10am
Originally posted by iGRF

Nobody cares, or should be even bothered what 'top sailors' think, this is about trying to stem the flow,, stop the rot, bring more folk into the sport than are leaving it. If all there is, is handicap racing, then it has to be improved, made less irritating, irrational, illogical. Top sailors don't drive club racing, club racing is where folk at the beginning or the end of their careers end up and the game should be that the end guys should encourage the new young guys, not make it stupidly impossible just because they;ve become bad losers.

So Henry in his new Farr 3.7 should be encouraged, not discouraged, the old Fart hasbeen in his 3.7 can make whatever decision he wants, it's not about him either.

What it's about, is keeping the sport interesting and accessible to a generation that want it now and want it to be easy and more understandable.

Because they're snowflakes.

I didn't say that anyone should be really bothered what the top sailors think. I know they don't drive club racing. I said IMHO they shouldn't normally worry about club racing.

I was just saying that the experience in coming from a scene where personal handicap is endemic is that many of them don't find it challenging.


Edited by CT249 - 24 Oct 19 at 3:12am
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