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Post Options Post Options   Quote CT249 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Aug 19 at 10:08am
Originally posted by mozzy

Originally posted by CT249

 
There are so many different scenarios that it seems hard to state any strict rules about this sort of situation, IMHO. 
Every action you take should be to get your boat to the finish as quick as possible. Anything outside that is unsporting. 

In terms of the racing rules of sailing I wouldn't go as far as saying you should always sail your proper course. As getting out to one side of a pack of boats to get clear air so you can get to the finish quicker is legitimate. 

I think Case 78 is what's relevant here and I think it was a big mistake to include handicap and rated events in that case. 




So if you think there's a 51% chance the wind will go right and all of your opponents go left, you HAVE to go right or be unsporting?

So it's wrong to keep on going for a boatlength to put a loose cover on an opponent when leading up the last leg of a championship?

You should NEVER sail a single degree higher than your best VMG off the starting line in order to get someone to tack off your weather stern?

You shouldn't ever duck a port tacker to encourage them to keep going? 

If it's going to be a really dodgy downwind leg under kite, you MUST put the kite up if you think there's a 50.000001% chance it will be quicker, and it's unsporting to say "the guys behind have left their kite in the bag so we will too"?

You can't look at the fleet and say "well, I think the No 1 will be quicker but everyone else has changed down so we will do the same so that we know we can be competitive"?

It's a breach of good sportsmanship to do something that the world governing body specifically says is NOT a breach of good sportsmanship?

That seems to be harder line than anything I've ever read about, and to be honest it would rob the sailboat racing game of a lot of interest for many of us. Certainly it would mean that almost all of the world's top sailors (including Elvstrom and my personal favourite, Peter Mander) would be considered to be very bad sports, and that seems unlikely to me.


Edited by CT249 - 06 Aug 19 at 10:16am
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Post Options Post Options   Quote CT249 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Aug 19 at 10:35am
Originally posted by JimC

Originally posted by mozzy

]I think Case 78 is what's relevant here and I think it was a big mistake to include handicap and rated events in that case. 

Its difficult though. There's the two boats of very similar performance scenario and the one design results extracted from handicap racing scenario. Whilst I'm not comfortable with A Class via Optimist say, I think pragmatically there are fewer problems caused by having the case apply to everything than there are in attempting to draw a firm boundary where none can exist.

Exactly.

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Post Options Post Options   Quote CT249 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Aug 19 at 10:45am
Originally posted by Oli

asking all....  in a pursuit race what would you do if being the faster boat and just seconds from taking the lead from the slowest boat and seconds from the finish?  

do you sail around them?  or attack?

or in the slower boat and trying to retain the lead with just seconds to go to the finish?

do you accept they sail around or do you defend?

If the other sailor is a good racer who relishes a good tactical contest, I'd go for the win regardless of which boat I was in. Otherwise it would be a bit dull and patronising. Playing boat-on-boat tactics is a really fun and interesting part of the sport, and doing it in different boats can bring up some interesting foibles.

If the other sailor was someone who was, for example, a less experienced sailor who would love to win, I'd normally find a way to lose whatever boat I was sailing, unless that was patronising and/or too obvious, in which case you give them some tips as you approach and hope they get moving and beat you.

It's only a race, which means it's no big problem if you lose and no big deal if you win.


Edited by CT249 - 07 Aug 19 at 1:13am
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Aug 19 at 11:40am
Originally posted by CT249

 
they compete using strategy and boat-on-boat tactics against nearby craft, and no one complains. 

Which is totally different and fine. General sailing to preserve clear wind and keep position regarding the fleet and boats immediately around you is fine. This is aimed at getting yourself around the course in the quickest time possible. 

Slowing yourself to go back to specially hamper one particular boat who due to being slower is defenceless against the match racing tactics is not.  
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Aug 19 at 12:02pm
Originally posted by CT249

Originally posted by mozzy

Originally posted by CT249

 
There are so many different scenarios that it seems hard to state any strict rules about this sort of situation, IMHO. 
Every action you take should be to get your boat to the finish as quick as possible. Anything outside that is unsporting. 

In terms of the racing rules of sailing I wouldn't go as far as saying you should always sail your proper course. As getting out to one side of a pack of boats to get clear air so you can get to the finish quicker is legitimate. 

I think Case 78 is what's relevant here and I think it was a big mistake to include handicap and rated events in that case. 




So if you think there's a 51% chance the wind will go right and all of your opponents go left, you HAVE to go right or be unsporting?
Clearly not. If the fleet is going the other way then your hedging your chances on getting around the course quickest (on handicap) by going with. This is pretty unrelated to deliberately slowing other boats. 

So it's wrong to keep on going for a boatlength to put a loose cover on an opponent when leading up the last leg of a championship?
There's no championship raced on handicap. But yeah, I wouldn't sail a boat length out of my way for the sole purpose of slowing another boat in a handicap race. Even in class racing I'd only do it if I thought there was a genuine risk they'd overtake before the finish. Often if it makes no difference to me I'd deliberately not tack on them, just because stuff like that comes around. 

You should NEVER sail a single degree higher than your best VMG off the starting line in order to get someone to tack off your weather stern?
No of course you can do that. You are protecting your wind in a effort to get around the course as quick as possible. I said above I wouldn't go as far as saying you have to sail your proper course at all times. 

You shouldn't ever duck a port tacker to encourage them to keep going? 
See above. I wouldn't go as far as saying you have to sail a proper course. Just that you should take action to your boat around the curse as quick as possible. 

If it's going to be a really dodgy downwind leg under kite, you MUST put the kite up if you think there's a 50.000001% chance it will be quicker, and it's unsporting to say "the guys behind have left their kite in the bag so we will too"?
Well, it's faster if you don't capsize. All sailing is matching risk with reward to get your boat around the course as fast as possible. If you think the risk is less than the reward, then I'd question why you wouldn't do it. 

You can't look at the fleet and say "well, I think the No 1 will be quicker but everyone else has changed down so we will do the same so that we know we can be competitive"?
Again, this is just hedging your bets. You're still trying to get your boat around quickest. Your just factoring in what other people have done to your risk versus reward to your boat around the course quickest.  

It's a breach of good sportsmanship to do something that the world governing body specifically says is NOT a breach of good sportsmanship?
I think they are wrong. Rating and handicaps don't equal out the advantage a boat gets when specifically employing tactics to hamper a specific boat. To me that's not fair sailing. 

That seems to be harder line than anything I've ever read about, and to be honest it would rob the sailboat racing game of a lot of interest for many of us. Certainly it would mean that almost all of the world's top sailors (including Elvstrom and my personal favourite, Peter Mander) would be considered to be very bad sports, and that seems unlikely to me.
Only because you're interpreted what I said as having to sail your proper course and take maximum risk, which is definitely not what I wrote. 

If you're interest is match racing slower boats in handicap racing then I pity you. That's not sport for me. I don't know peter mander, but didn't Elvstrom say "You haven't won if, in doing so, you have lost the respect of your competitors. I've never heard of him matching racing in a handicap race. 


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Post Options Post Options   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Aug 19 at 12:13pm
Originally posted by JimC

Originally posted by mozzy

]I think Case 78 is what's relevant here and I think it was a big mistake to include handicap and rated events in that case. 

Its difficult though. There's the two boats of very similar performance scenario and the one design results extracted from handicap racing scenario. Whilst I'm not comfortable with A Class via Optimist say, I think pragmatically there are fewer problems caused by having the case apply to everything than there are in attempting to draw a firm boundary where none can exist.

I don't think it's that difficult. Handicaps and rating correct time. Using match racing tactics against a specific boat goes against that.  

I don't think it would open up any floodgates as it would be very hard to prove in all but the extreme cases anyway. 

It's fine to use boat on boat tactics, and fleet management etc whether the aim is to finish sooner. But when you're taking action to specifically slow another boat at the detriment to your finishing time, that's unsporting to me. 
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Post Options Post Options   Quote iGRF Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Aug 19 at 3:46pm
A particular irritant that is prevalent in dinghies that doesn't happen, well not at the upper levels of windsurf racing, is that boat that even though you've over stood to leave plenty of room for them to tack to your lee bow to round ahead on a starboard hand course, they're going to go on and on yelling starboard to turn you about.

We had a downwind start the next mark was dead downwind from the favoured end (closest to the downwind mark) Port hand start, yet all those Laserati up the line they come sailing in exactly the opposite direction to force a tack away, a good several boat lengths in exactly the opposite directon from the mark, I did a bit of research on this to find the appropriate 'proper course' after the gun ruling, but it is very unclear.




Edited by iGRF - 06 Aug 19 at 3:48pm
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Post Options Post Options   Quote CT249 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Aug 19 at 12:56am
Mozzy, I was responding to your line "Every action you take should be to get your boat to the finish as quick as possible. Anything outside that is unsporting."

Some of the examples you gave in red show that there are times when you would sail out of your way to cover people and perhaps go a bit slower by "factoring what other people have done". Those actions interfere with getting "to the finish line as quick as possible" so by your definition they are bad sportsmanship. Since I don't suggest you're a bad sport, perhaps your definition is a bit too tight?'

Similarly, there is no doubt that Elvstrom, along with Sir Peter Scott, Uffa Fox, Robin Steavenson, NZ gold medallist Peter Mander (just to pick some sailors whose books I have) have regularly taken "action to specifically slow another boat at the detriment of (their) finishing time" which you say it unsporting. I don't think they were bad sports; the boat on boat action is part of the game.

There may be some confusion amongst us about when we are talking handicap racing or class racing, but there's often a very dim line between the two in offshore boats. There certainly are many championships that are sailed on handicap. There are hundreds of international, national and local championships under HN, LYS, IRC, ORC, ORR, CBH, PHRF, SMS and other handicap or rating rules. As noted, there may be a different culture among those who have raced under such rules.

I've been in the position of being tactician while leading a national championship under a handicap rule in offshore boats, and both covering and (later) being covered by the faster boat that was second on points. No one on any boat thought it was poor sportsmanship, just as no one thought it was poor sportsmanship that we gained an advantage when everyone was stopped in a calm and the time allowance clock was still ticking in our favour. No one thought it was bad sportsmanship when the Olympian in another higher-rating boat covered us as we covered the higher-rating boat we had to beat; it's part of the game and mixed fleet racing would be less interesting to many people without it.   

As far as "If you're interest is match racing slower boats in handicap racing then I pity you.", I have already noted I wouldn't sit on a slower boat in a club race myself. I'll say it again - I wouldn't sit on a slower boat in a club race myself. However, I'm not perfect and therefore if other people have differing reasonable opinions (as you do) I'll respect that. My point is that condemning the OP's actions may not be as clear cut as some people believe, and that it may be harsh to condemn someone as a poor sport for doing something the rules specifically say is not poor sportsmanship.







Edited by CT249 - 07 Aug 19 at 1:21am
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Aug 19 at 1:29am
Originally posted by 423zero

Oli, I would sail my correct course in the slow boat, deliberately manoeuvring to prevent overtaking boat from getting past is unsportsmanlike.

Originally posted by mozzy

Every action you take should be to get your boat to the finish as quick as possible. Anything outside that is unsporting.


Originally posted by RS400atC

The rules are in the rule book.
Those are the only rules.
People tend to make up other rules to suit their vague sense of what should be seen to be fair, but that's just opinion.
You may not like the fact that the rules allow a series to be won by using tactics against another boat in some circumstances, but those are the rules you have.


Originally posted by mozzy

I think Case 78 is what's relevant here and I think it was a big mistake to include handicap and rated events in that case.


I would suggest that Case 78 envisaged large handicap events like IRC, with Divisions of similarly performing boats, where no very great disparity between boats was expected.

I think we can all agree that in a club race with a wide performance disparity, say A Class vs Opti, or Cherub vs GP14, it might be within the rules to match race a slow boat down the fleet, but it is less than sportsmanlike.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Aug 19 at 8:08am
Originally posted by CT249

Some of the examples you gave in red show that there are times when you would sail out of your way to cover people and perhaps go a bit slower by "factoring what other people have done". Those actions interfere with getting "to the finish line as quick as possible" so by your definition they are bad sportsmanship. Since I don't suggest you're a bad sport, perhaps your definition is a bit too tight?'
 
No they don't. None of the examples show I would sail out of my way to 'cover' people. And you're interpreting it as meaning you should ignore all other boats, which is clearly not what I said. What my comments in red say is that there's nothing wrong with factoring in what other boats are doing in your assessment of which way will pay and what risks to take. This is also obviously outside the discussion of match racing. 

Originally posted by CT249

Similarly, there is no doubt that Elvstrom, along with Sir Peter Scott, Uffa Fox, Robin Steavenson, NZ gold medallist Peter Mander (just to pick some sailors whose books I have) have regularly taken "action to specifically slow another boat at the detriment of (their) finishing time" which you say it unsporting. I don't think they were bad sports; the boat on boat action is part of the game.
In handicap races? We are talking about handicap racing here.

Originally posted by CT249

There may be some confusion amongst us about when we are talking handicap racing or class racing, but there's often a very dim line between the two in offshore boats. There certainly are many championships that are sailed on handicap. There are hundreds of international, national and local championships under HN, LYS, IRC, ORC, ORR, CBH, PHRF, SMS and other handicap or rating rules. As noted, there may be a different culture among those who have raced under such rules.
  Well, you're on a dinghy forum talking in thread about handicap club racing. I don't think there is any confusion here about what a handicap race is or isn't. 

Secondly, if you're racing on handicap, to me it's to be inclusive and get more people on the water. If some yacht sailors take it too seriously and want to call them championships that's fine. But I won't be taking any cues on what they think, or don't think is sporting. 

Originally posted by CT249

 I wouldn't sit on a slower boat in a club race myself. However, I'm not perfect and therefore if other people have differing reasonable opinions (as you do) I'll respect that. My point is that condemning the OP's actions may not be as clear cut as some people believe, and that it may be harsh to condemn someone as a poor sport for doing something the rules specifically say is not poor sportsmanship.
That's good to hear. And why wouldn't you sit on a slower boat in a handicap race? 

As for how clear cut it is, I disagree. Match racing a slower boat is poor sportsmanship and should be discouraged. I don't need the rules to tell me what is good and bad sportsmanship.  If the competition isn't fair, then it isn't sporting. 
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