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Oli View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Oli Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Aug 19 at 8:16am
so who would sail down an identical boat in a handicap fleet?
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Aug 19 at 8:28am
Ha, that is a good question and more of a grey area.

Generally I wouldn't, even if there is a class prize, mostly because a) we're still racing for time so to deny them that opportunity would be unfair and b) discard in these club series tend to be due to life commitments and I wouldn't feel comfortable taking advantage of child care issues or unfavourable shift patterns to beat someone for a bottle of wine!

But.... if it was friend who I knew was game, then i just might!
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Post Options Post Options   Quote 423zero Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Aug 19 at 9:06am
Mozzy, luffing your mate is banter though and good fun, got no issues with that.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Oli Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Aug 19 at 10:31am
Originally posted by mozzy

Ha, that is a good question and more of a grey area.

Generally I wouldn't, even if there is a class prize, mostly because a) we're still racing for time so to deny them that opportunity would be unfair and b) discard in these club series tend to be due to life commitments and I wouldn't feel comfortable taking advantage of child care issues or unfavourable shift patterns to beat someone for a bottle of wine!

But.... if it was friend who I knew was game, then i just might!

ive certainly had some good match racing battles with friends over the years within handicap fleets myself, possibly to the detrement of our overall result but the one on one racing was wirth it, but as you point out it depends if theyre game.

i've seen whole od fleets within a handicap fleet sail each other backwards through the results, guess they too dont mind on the water but were always first to moan about py if they lost, bizzare attitude or just a few cells shy of working out what theyd done to themsleves.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote CT249 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Aug 19 at 2:29am
Mozzy, re "If the competition isn't fair, then it isn't sporting."

Okay - but then on (for example) a small lake like mine where the slow boats like the one I usually sail already have a huge advantage, it's unsporting to stop the fast-boat sailor from making the competition fairer by using his speed to reduce his boat's disadvantage.  Since I have an advantage of about 15% on corrected time against the fastest boat in the fleet, it would be unfair and therefore unsporting of me to complain if he chose to cover me in one race.  It's fairer and more sporting to allow the fast-boat sailor a chance to reduce the huge disadvantage against him, than it is to restrict his tactical options.

At a club like mine, the only way to make yardstick competition truly fair is make everyone sail a one design and ensure that all sailors are of similar weights, or to ban every boat apart from two of the old cats - every other boat has an "unfair" advantage over them. Such approaches are unlikely to maintain our current rate of growth!  The other way is to not take racing too seriously, and to allow those whose boats are uncompetitive to use tactics to reduce their disadvantage.

The reason I raised offshore boats and handicap racing is that they indicate that this is not a black-and-white matter where people from all sailing cultures agree - it's one where your position can vary depending on your experience. Tactical racing amongst boats of widely varying performance is a complex and fascinating part of our sport, in which there is some really interesting give and take. It seems that we could learn from the attitudes of those who do lots of it. However, since you apparently look down on so many of your fellow sailors  (FFS, offshore racing under rating rules is such a fascinating, challenging, popular and extremely competitive part of our sport that I don't know how anyone can be so dismissive as to say that having championships is "taking it too seriously") it's apparent that we will not agree.

Finally, as a class president, volunteer instructor, coach and club official I've spent lots of time building fleets and keeping the accent on fun - I just feel that the best way to do that is to respect varied viewpoints rather than saying that those who disagree are unsporting.









 




 


Edited by CT249 - 08 Aug 19 at 2:54am
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Post Options Post Options   Quote CT249 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Aug 19 at 2:49am
Originally posted by Oli

 

ive certainly had some good match racing battles with friends over the years within handicap fleets myself, possibly to the detrement of our overall result but the one on one racing was wirth it, but as you point out it depends if theyre game.

Yep. That's what I don't get about some of this discussion - it ignores the fact that many of us are definitely game for this sort of contest, and find it to be a fun and fascinating part of the sport.  If someone didn't enjoy being the "target" then the situation could change.

To me, racing without playing boat-on-boat tactics in good spirit would be a bit like playing cricket and making sure you didn't bowl the batsman out, or doing a bike race in which all the guys who were good at climbing hills made sure they went slow so they didn't drop the sprinters, and the sprinters then obligingly sat up at the finish to make sure everyone crossed the line in a huge dead heat.  Playing tactics is part of the fun.  If the sport was just about sailing fast to the finish then one may almost just go and do speed sailing.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Rupert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Aug 19 at 7:15am
But a person on a road bike weaving around in front of a person on a BMX to ensure they wouldn't be able to beat a mountain bike on handicap, where the rider of the road bike can discount that race? Would that seem fair?
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Aug 19 at 8:01am
Originally posted by CT249

Mozzy, re "If the competition isn't fair, then it isn't sporting."

Okay - but then on (for example) a small lake like mine where the slow boats like the one I usually sail already have a huge advantage, it's unsporting to stop the fast-boat sailor from making the competition fairer by using his speed to reduce his boat's disadvantage.  Since I have an advantage of about 15% on corrected time against the fastest boat in the fleet, it would be unfair and therefore unsporting of me to complain if he chose to cover me in one race.  It's fairer and more sporting to allow the fast-boat sailor a chance to reduce the huge disadvantage against him, than it is to restrict his tactical options.
The handicaps are supposed to be fair, and for better or worse they are what you sign up to on entry. If you don't think they're fair, then don't race and try to get them altered. But two wrongs don't make a right, so no, if you perceive a handicap as unfair, I don't think that makes match racing a slower boat sportsmanlike. 

Originally posted by CT249

At a club like mine, the only way to make yardstick competition truly fair is make everyone sail a one design
completely agree

Originally posted by CT249

...Such approaches are unlikely to maintain our current rate of growth!  The other way is to not take racing too seriously, and to allow those whose boats are uncompetitive to use tactics to reduce their disadvantage.
Well the first part is correct. You accept the handicap and sail on, for fun as a way to increase participation, it's not all about winning.  But, clearly, the fast boat isn't uncompetitive if it's match racing for a series win. And if the handicap is wrong and they are being beaten by all the other boats, then randomly targeting someone to piss off each week isn't very sporting either.  

Originally posted by CT249

The reason I raised offshore boats and handicap racing is that they indicate that this is not a black-and-white matter where people from all sailing cultures agree
But where do you stop drawing comparisons? There are plenty of sports which run under completely different pretences. Handicap racing corrects time based upon average performance of a class. 

Originally posted by CT249

- it's one where your position can vary depending on your experience. Tactical racing amongst boats of widely varying performance is a complex and fascinating part of our sport, in which there is some really interesting give and take. It seems that we could learn from the attitudes of those who do lots of it. However, since you apparently look down on so many of your fellow sailors  (FFS, offshore racing under rating rules is such a fascinating, challenging, popular and extremely competitive part of our sport that I don't know how anyone can be so dismissive as to say that having championships is "taking it too seriously") it's apparent that we will not agree.
I look down on those who think it's okay to match race and unmatched boat. 

I think you brought up keel-boat racing to muddy the water. In cycling you can box your opponents in to stop them breaking away, ride them in the gutter, form alliances to eliminate the strongest competitors... that's the culture in cycling so why not in handicap racing at  a small club? But they're also all free to ride whatever bike they like. We're talking about handicap racing in dinghies in a club series. The handicaps are based upon corrected time from average performances of classes. It assumes each boat gets a fair crack at setting a good time and adopting tactics to prevent a single boat from doing that will cause bad blood. 

Originally posted by CT249

Finally, as a class president, volunteer instructor, coach and club official I've spent lots of time building fleets and keeping the accent on fun - I just feel that the best way to do that is to respect varied viewpoints rather than saying that those who disagree are unsporting.
That sounds very nice, but how do you resolve the conflict between the two boats?  One person may enjoy match racing slower boats, but it comes at the expense of the enjoyment of the slower boat. 


Edited by mozzy - 08 Aug 19 at 3:05pm
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Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Aug 19 at 8:57am
Originally posted by CT249

If the sport was just about sailing fast to the finish then one may almost just go and do speed sailing.

Think you're stretching a bit there. Speed sailing is more like drag racing - a different sport.
A feature of our ever changing racecourse is that its more or less impossible to do time trial competition. Handicap racing is a sort of of partway house towards it. In some ways I feel the time trial to be the purest form of speed competition without the distractions of elbows out barging at the corners. If it were possible in sailing it would probably be my choice, but it would be just too weather dependant.

Edited by JimC - 08 Aug 19 at 8:58am
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Aug 19 at 11:52am
Originally posted by CT249

Originally posted by Oli

 

ive certainly had some good match racing battles with friends over the years within handicap fleets myself, possibly to the detrement of our overall result but the one on one racing was wirth it, but as you point out it depends if theyre game.

Yep. That's what I don't get about some of this discussion - it ignores the fact that many of us are definitely game for this sort of contest, and find it to be a fun and fascinating part of the sport.  If someone didn't enjoy being the "target" then the situation could change.
Oli is talking about two boats of the same class within a handicap fleet. Who also are game for it. Basically having you're own match race within the construct of a club race, just for fun, even though it harms both your results.  

You are talking about a faster boat match racing a specific slower boat to win a series to destroy their race when they have no discard left, with no prior understanding from the slower boat. And then saying it's okay because you enjoy it. 

They are two hugely different situations. 
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