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Regatta week or championships?

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Poll Question: Regatta week or Championships
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5 [18.52%]
13 [48.15%]
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Post Options Post Options   Quote mozzy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Jul 19 at 12:42pm
because with standard low point scoring the example above skews the regatta toward day 3 and 4. It therefore favours the conditions you happen to have one those days and short course sailing (starting). 

The thing I like about a 5 day event is it tests over a range of conditions. If you don't weight the scoring it shifts that on to the conditions you get on the two short race days. 

Also, whilst the good guys always find their way through, and whilst a I agree that most significant overtaking opportunities are over after 45 minutes i still think a race of 1.5 hours has more value than a race of 45 minutes, although probably not as much value as two 45 minute races, if you get what I mean. 

For fleets over 50 boats then sub-30 minute races are pretty unfair and you'd struggle to get starts off. You'd maybe have to split down to flights, so again you'd have to do something fancy with scoring. 
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Sam.Spoons View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Sam.Spoons Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Jul 19 at 12:52pm
Originally posted by mozzy

because with standard low point scoring the example above skews the regatta toward day 3 and 4. It therefore favours the conditions you happen to have one those days and short course sailing (starting).

But it's the same for everybody

The thing I like about a 5 day event is it tests over a range of conditions. If you don't weight the scoring it shifts that on to the conditions you get on the two short race days.

True but as before it's the same for everybody

Also, whilst the good guys always find their way through, and whilst a I agree that most significant overtaking opportunities are over after 45 minutes i still think a race of 1.5 hours has more value than a race of 45 minutes, although probably not as much value as two 45 minute races, if you get what I mean.

Agreed

For fleets over 50 boats then sub-30 minute races are pretty unfair and you'd struggle to get starts off. You'd maybe have to split down to flights, so again you'd have to do something fancy with scoring. 

Agreed. Simple truth is you'll never please everybody  Confused



Edited by Sam.Spoons - 10 Jul 19 at 12:53pm
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mozzy View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote mozzy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Jul 19 at 1:04pm
Yes, it's the same for everybody. But is it testing the skills we want to test at a national championships? 

Conditions change day to day more than within a single day. One of the characteristics I like to see in a champion is someone who can analyse a new race course. When you have several races on the same day often by race 2 or 3 everyone has figured out the track and it becomes more about boat speed and starting. Spreading the races over the week favours the skill of analysing a new race track.  

Similarly, doing more races on one day is the same for everyone. But it does mean more of your races will be done in a certain condition. Yes, we can get bad weather weeks where this happens anyway. But by loading one or two days the chances are you will get a less well rounded sailor. I like to see a national champion have to perform across as variable conditions as are race-able and the bets chance to get that is to spread out over a week. 

So yeah, not weighting the races isn't unfair. But I don't think it poses as good a test for determining a national champion. 

On the other hand, I get the point about testing sailor over different formats and would like to see that. But without skewing the regatta to one format or another, or one condition or another. 
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Sam.Spoons Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Jul 19 at 3:44pm
Maybe then :-
Day 1 one practice race, two medium length races to count,
Day 2 one long and two short races,
Day 3 two short followed by one long
Day 4 two medium races

Or some other variant so days have a mix of long short and medium format races.

I still don't like the idea of valuing races differently but I get the worry that some days would be favoured.

TBF it's of academic interest to me anyway as my championship days are in the past.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote KazRob Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Jul 19 at 4:54pm
Why are your championships days in the past? That's the good thing about them - no matter what your fitness, talent, budget or circumstances they are always (in my opinion) a great chance to get together and enjoy your class of boat with others, far more than just a weekend open event
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Daniel Holman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Jul 19 at 8:18pm
Originally posted by mozzy

Yes, it's the same for everybody. But is it testing the skills we want to test at a national championships? 

Conditions change day to day more than within a single day. One of the characteristics I like to see in a champion is someone who can analyse a new race course. When you have several races on the same day often by race 2 or 3 everyone has figured out the track and it becomes more about boat speed and starting. Spreading the races over the week favours the skill of analysing a new race track.  

Similarly, doing more races on one day is the same for everyone. But it does mean more of your races will be done in a certain condition. Yes, we can get bad weather weeks where this happens anyway. But by loading one or two days the chances are you will get a less well rounded sailor. I like to see a national champion have to perform across as variable conditions as are race-able and the bets chance to get that is to spread out over a week. 

So yeah, not weighting the races isn't unfair. But I don't think it poses as good a test for determining a national champion. 

On the other hand, I get the point about testing sailor over different formats and would like to see that. But without skewing the regatta to one format or another, or one condition or another. 


Agree with all Mozzy has said. Reckon races should be more like 1h plus with 2 laps i.e. getting decent length legs so it is not just boat on boat. A bit of variety in courses and even a bit of point to point is excellent IMO. Else its a bit youth squad procedural stuff.

I think that in adult amateur classes, doing much more than 2h of hard racing in a day repeatedly is a big ask, as is 4h plus on the water repeatedly. More is Fine for weekends or aspirational kids!

Issue being now we all have goldfish like attention spans, the "spare" time at regattas, esp those longer than 3 day weekend feels uncomfortably like a waste sometimes. But it should be good to kick back with like minded individuals.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Sam.Spoons Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Jul 19 at 10:06pm
This ^ 

Originally posted by KazRob

Why are your championships days in the past? That's the good thing about them - no matter what your fitness, talent, budget or circumstances they are always (in my opinion) a great chance to get together and enjoy your class of boat with others, far more than just a weekend open event

No argument with that but my level of fitness at 66 discourages me from two+ day events.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Oli Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Jul 19 at 12:52pm
It was the most extreme example tbh, one with most of the options on the table and as youíve pointed out Mozzy it wouldnít suit every fleet, but then what regatta/championship does? Itís all compromises to get the fleet away, but sticking to one format the whole time doesnít tell a complete story and is also a bit boring after a while.

Your overall placing on each day could be your points, so if you won each day on a 5 day event your score would be 5. Each day is as important as the previous, not just the individual races but how you handle the differences between each day.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Rupert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Jul 19 at 2:12pm
Interesting idea Oli. You thinking each day is an individual event with a different format, then the winner of the week is the one with the lowest daily score?
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Oli Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Jul 19 at 2:27pm
thats the crux of it Rupert. 
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