Port & Starboards

   Firstly:

Boat A approaching windward mark on starboard(to be rounded to port). They have overstood and are fetching towards the mark.

Boat B approaches mark on port, tacks beneath A within 3 lengths of the mark.

A has to point up a little  to go above B but not above close hauled.

Has B fouled A ?

Secondly:

When a starboard tack boat, sailing upwind, approaches a port tack boat also sailing upwind can the starboard boat change course as they wish and 'chase' the port tack boat to inflict  a penalty ? (sure you used to have to 'hold your course' ?)

If so, how does the port tack boat avoid this ?. Giles Scott pulled off something like this in the recent Finn Europeans medal race.

Edited by rich96 - 03 Jun 19 at 5:38am

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rich96 Send Private Message Find Member's Posts Really should get out more Joined: 20 Jan 05 Online Status: Offline Posts: 596	Post Options Post Reply Quote rich96 Report Post Quote Reply Topic: Port & Starboards Posted: 03 Jun 19 at 5:20am
	Firstly: Boat A approaching windward mark on starboard(to be rounded to port). They have overstood and are fetching towards the mark. Boat B approaches mark on port, tacks beneath A within 3 lengths of the mark. A has to point up a little to go above B but not above close hauled. Has B fouled A ? Secondly: When a starboard tack boat, sailing upwind, approaches a port tack boat also sailing upwind can the starboard boat change course as they wish and 'chase' the port tack boat to inflict a penalty ? (sure you used to have to 'hold your course' ?) If so, how does the port tack boat avoid this ?. Giles Scott pulled off something like this in the recent Finn Europeans medal race. Edited by rich96 - 03 Jun 19 at 5:38am

JimC Send Private Message Find Member's Posts Visit Member's Homepage Really should get out more Joined: 17 May 04 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 6649	Post Options Post Reply Quote JimC Report Post Quote Reply Posted: 03 Jun 19 at 6:03am
	Firstly: need more detail. - did B comply with RRS13 "while tacking?", That's probably critical. - sounds as if she complied with RRS15 - acquiring right of way - sounds as if 18.3 doesn't apply. Secondly: - isn't that straightforward RRS16. Starboard may not prevent port from keeping clear.

ColPrice2002 Send Private Message Find Member's Posts Far too distracted from work Joined: 25 Nov 08 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 222	Post Options Post Reply Quote ColPrice2002 Report Post Quote Reply Posted: 03 Jun 19 at 6:19am
	First question:- " 18.3. Tacking in the Zone If a boat in the zone of a mark to be left to port passes head to wind from port to starboard tack and is then fetching the mark, she shall not cause a boat that has been on starboard tack since entering the zone to sail above close-hauled to avoid contact and she shall give mark-room if that boat becomes overlapped inside her. When this rule applies between boats, rule 18.2 does not apply between them. " Note that the port tack boat is the give way boat while on port while passing head to wind to close hauled starboard. The starboard tack boat must be given room to keep clear (rule 15) So, the answer depends on whether A had take avoiding action before B completed its tack. Second question:- "16. CHANGING COURSE 16.1. When a right-of-way boat changes course, she shall give the other boat room to keep clear. 16.2. In addition, when after the starting signal a port-tack boat is keeping clear by sailing to pass astern of a starboard-tack boat, the starboard-tack boat shall not change course if as a result the port-tack boat would immediately need to change course to continue keeping clear. 17. ON THE SAME TACK; PROPER COURSE If a boat clear astern becomes overlapped within two of her hull lengths to leeward of a boat on the same tack, she shall not sail above her proper course while they remain on the same tack and overlapped within that distance, unless in doing so she promptly sails astern of the other boat. This rule does not apply if the overlap begins while the windward boat is required by rule keep clear." Notice the change in wording... There is also the fair sailing rule to consider.. Unless you have a jury boat following, your protest committee will be relying on witness statements - probably both helms. That type of situation is very difficult to resolve without outside evidence. Colin

ohFFsake Send Private Message Find Member's Posts Far too distracted from work Joined: 04 Sep 08 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 219	Post Options Post Reply Quote ohFFsake Report Post Quote Reply Posted: 03 Jun 19 at 8:58am
	Regarding the second question, I don't see how Rule 17 could ever be applied here as it specifically states it applies to boats on the same tack. Similarly, I don't see any issue about "fair sailing" in terms of the specific question posed. If the rules allow you to alter course and to do so might improve your position in the race, that seems a fairly legit strategy... So it is down to Rule 16.1 and 16.2 which reinforces it for this specific case. I think the key word here is "immediately", which is to say that the Starboard tack boat is free to alter course as she pleases, including preventing the Port boat from passing behind her, as long as she does so without requiring an immediate reaction. How long defines "immediate" is I suppose open to interpretation, and a matter for the PC to decide as a fact found.

rich96 Send Private Message Find Member's Posts Really should get out more Joined: 20 Jan 05 Online Status: Offline Posts: 596	Post Options Post Reply Quote rich96 Report Post Quote Reply Posted: 03 Jun 19 at 11:06am
	First scenario - Boat B completed tack inside zone but boat A had to head up to sail above B (but still not above close hauled. B had completed its tack before A had to head up Presumably if this port/starboard event had happed outside of the zone B would have fouled A 9made her change course) ? Second scenario - Giles S (on starboard) put bow down when his opponent tacked (onto port) and then definitely altered course to prevent opponent sailing behind hi. The jury were on Giles side ?

ohFFsake Send Private Message Find Member's Posts Far too distracted from work Joined: 04 Sep 08 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 219	Post Options Post Reply Quote ohFFsake Report Post Quote Reply Posted: 03 Jun 19 at 11:20am
	First scenario: No rule broken, though if it went to protest B might find it difficult to convince the committee that A didn't need to go above close hauled. Giles Scott incident: As per earlier analysis, 16.1 seems unlikely to be broken if the port boat was able to avoid a collision. So it's just down to 16.2, and I would say that for the Starboard boat to be at fault two facts would need to be found: 1. At the point starboard altered course was P sailing to pass astern of her? In this instance if S altered course as soon as P tacked onto port it would seem hard to conclude she was at that point doing so. 2. That P had to take immediate avoiding action following S's course change. Even a half second delay before P responds would seem to be sufficient to put this in S's favour. It would seem that as long as S acts early and positively then it should be possible for them to prevent P from ever getting into a position where 16.2 applies, and 16.1 has no "immediately" clause that she needs to comply with - if P is able to keep clear by acting immediately then she must.

Guests Send Private Message Find Member's Posts Guest Group	Post Options Post Reply Quote Guests Quote Reply Posted: 03 Jun 19 at 12:26pm
	38 seconds "16.2 In addition, when after the starting signal a port-tack boat is keeping clear by sailing to pass astern of a starboard-tack boat, the starboard-tack boat shall not change course if as a result the port-tack boat would immediately need to change course to continue keeping clear." I'm not sure the other boat is ever sailing to pass astern because Giles drops the bow so early. So it forces the other boat to either try and cross, which is unlikely as Giles would come up, or tack back. Which is what Giles is saying to the umpire the boat should have done. Edited by mozzy - 03 Jun 19 at 12:32pm

ohFFsake Send Private Message Find Member's Posts Far too distracted from work Joined: 04 Sep 08 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 219	Post Options Post Reply Quote ohFFsake Report Post Quote Reply Posted: 03 Jun 19 at 12:46pm
	Far as I can tell from the video, Giles alters course twice. The first time as soon as the port boat tacks, when they are still a considerable distance apart, so no rule breach there. Then the port boat alters course to duck and Giles bears away again to a new course. After this the port boat appears to hold course for 2 seconds before heading up to avoid a collision, which seems to be a bit longer than "immediately". No rule broken?

Guests Send Private Message Find Member's Posts Guest Group	Post Options Post Reply Quote Guests Quote Reply Posted: 03 Jun 19 at 12:56pm
	The other boat was given a penalty. To be honest I thought the purpose of 16.2 was to prevent tactics such as these. Giles seems to change course a few times. I think the first bear away is just about okay, but at 50 seconds the Hungarian bears away further still to pass behind, at which point Giles almost immediately alters his course as well to bear away further. Maybe Giles forgot he wasn't team racing? I think he was lucky to get away with that.

rich96 Send Private Message Find Member's Posts Really should get out more Joined: 20 Jan 05 Online Status: Offline Posts: 596	Post Options Post Reply Quote rich96 Report Post Quote Reply Posted: 03 Jun 19 at 12:58pm
	[QUOTE=ohFFsake] First scenario: No rule broken, though if it went to protest B might find it difficult to convince the committee that A didn't need to go above close hauled.[---][/ Thanks So be clear - the rules regarding port and starboard at a windward mark (port rounding) are NOT the same as a port starboard upwind elsewhere on the course ? i.e if you were on port upwind and tacked infront of a starboard tacker and made them alter course remote from the windward mark you would be fouling them but, as longg as they can sail over or beneath you in the windward mark zone (without them going above close hauled) you're ok ? The Giles incident looks decidedly close to a foul the other way ?