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Tacking on a mark, room to keep clear? |
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Guests ![]() Guest Group ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Posted: 20 May 19 at 4:03pm |
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Blue (B) clear ahead of Yellow (Y) and slightly to leeward at 3 boats, both boat over the port layline on port. Proper course for both boats is to tack on the mark.
18 applies before B tacks and Y is clear astern so must give B mark room. Rule 21 exonerates B whilst sailing in her mark room for Section A plus rules 15 and 16. But, at which point is B tacking and therefore not sailing within her mark room? And at which point are they on port and starboard and so 18 no longer applies? Ignoring the mark the boats are going fast enough that Blue can't complete their tack and give yellow room to keep clear, so would either break 13 or 15. But as they are approaching the mark, and B was clear ahead Y should be giving blue mark room right up until position 3 (or maybe after when the tack is complete?)? The situation could be on a tight reach to mark your course requires you to tack around or two boat over-standing a port layline. ![]() Edited by mozzy - 24 May 19 at 10:58am |
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jeffers ![]() Really should get out more ![]() ![]() Joined: 29 Mar 04 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 3048 |
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Pretty clear to me, Blue cannot tack unless she is going to be clear of Yellow at all times. Yellow is only required to give Blue Mark Room.
Edited by jeffers - 20 May 19 at 4:18pm |
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Paul
---------------------- D-Zero GBR 74 |
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Guests ![]() Guest Group ![]() |
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But... Blue can go up to head to wind without tacking. Then if the collision happens before head to wind then I guess it's yellow's foul?
So Blue should sail past the mark and wait for Yellow to tack for fear of switching off rule 18 and infringing Yellow? It seems odd that Blues mark room includes a tack when overlapped inside, but not when clear ahead. Why is that? Could Blue slow down, force yellow outside and overlapped and then she has room to tack included in her mark room? Or Blue slows down and yellow gets an inside overlap they are not entitled to, blue sails close to mark, but not tacking, forcing yellow to tack out? ![]() ![]() |
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jeffers ![]() Really should get out more ![]() ![]() Joined: 29 Mar 04 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 3048 |
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Either of the above is probably OK. The way I was told to do this was to go head to wind until the other boat has gone astern then go through to complete the tack (so like your second option but doing it at the mark). It would depend on tactical considerations for the next leg as to what the best thing to do would be.
For example it may have been better tactically to let Yellow tack inside and you tack on top to keep a clear lane and yourself in the best tactical position to keep them behind you (depending on which way the next mark was to be rounded). |
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Paul
---------------------- D-Zero GBR 74 |
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ClubRacer ![]() Far too distracted from work ![]() Joined: 26 Sep 15 Online Status: Offline Posts: 206 |
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I Presume it is because if Y was so close to leeward of B that B couldn't tack without the transom stepping out and hitting Y then both boats would be locked until Y bore away to allow B to tack anyway Wild guess
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That's what I don't really get, do you really take any more room to tack around a mark than gybe, or just head up from DDW to close hauled? I imagine the stern swinging out just as much as in any scenario. So it seems weird that the rule say you don't have room for it.
It might make more sense if written for a boat that can't go directly to the mark within the 3 boat lengths and instead needs extra space to tack toward it. And so they can only have that space to tack toward it if overlapped inside.
Just seems weird to not be 'allowed room to tack' when you don't actually need any over the mark room you would require if not tacking. It's not like room for a tack at an obstruction where you need to effectively turn off rule 13 and preemptively warn the other boats around. |
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JimC ![]() Really should get out more ![]() ![]() Joined: 17 May 04 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 6625 |
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You can go head to wind before it counts as a tack, so unless its howling, in which case no-one should be playing 6 inch apart games anyway, a nice slow tack at the mark should see blue well clear.
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Brass ![]() Really should get out more ![]() Joined: 24 Mar 08 Location: Australia Online Status: Offline Posts: 1143 |
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Sorry guys, but this discussion is yet again highlighting the problems caused by using language that is not in the rules. The rules do not use the word "tacking" or the phrase "complete a tack", nor do they say that, in any circumstances mark-room "includes a tack".
This example, with B on the layline, and able to come head to wind at the mark, contrasts with Case 15, where the boat clear astern was able to pin out the boat ahead, Case 15 Definitions, Mark-Room Rule 12, On the Same Tack, Not Overlapped Rule 13, While Tacking Rule 18.1(b), Mark-Room: When Rule 18 Applies Rule 18.2(b), Mark-Room: Giving Mark-Room Rule 18.2(c), Mark-Room: Giving Mark-Room In tacking to round a mark, a boat clear ahead must comply with rule 13; a boat clear astern is entitled to hold her course and thereby prevent the other from tacking Edited by Brass - 20 May 19 at 11:00pm |
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Brass ![]() Really should get out more ![]() Joined: 24 Mar 08 Location: Australia Online Status: Offline Posts: 1143 |
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Mark-room never "includes a tack". It may include "room to tack" but this only applies until the boat passes head to wind and mark-room ceases. The arch-typical example of room to tack Elvstrom gives is, for a boat with a large overlapping Genoa, like a FD, getting room to release the genny, and have it flag out to leeward as she comes up into the tack. I would be inclined to say that a stern-kick was just a boat sailing to, or around the mark. Edited by Brass - 20 May 19 at 11:22pm |
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Guests ![]() Guest Group ![]() |
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Just read case 95. Seems to make zero sense. A boat only changes tack when they cross head to wind, up to that moment they are just heading up. Whats the point in including room to tack mark room definition when it switches of the instant it's applicable? Blue is free to head up to head to wind anyway, because doing so is within her mark room. Heading up to head to wind is not tacking. It would makes sense if the definition was giving an inside overlapped boat room to go from head to wind to close hauled without breaking rule 13, but case 95 contradicts that idea. I think it would be good if the rules had a definition for tack the verb. The definition of the noun defines two tacks of which you can be on one or the other, but gives no indication of period when one might be tacking. Rule 13 seems to imply that 'while tacking' includes 'After a boat passes head to wind, she shall keep clear of other boats until she is on a close-hauled course.'
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