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Start of race |
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Henmch
Newbie Joined: 26 Dec 15 Online Status: Offline Posts: 18 |
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Topic: Start of race Posted: 17 May 19 at 2:52pm |
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Thank you for your responses to my original question which confirm my understanding.
If it was possible for the Windward boat A to keep clear of B by accelerating and crossing the line early even if there was for example a flag U flying could the leeward boat argue that this was boat A’s correct action to take to respond to leeward boat B’s luff even though boat A would be disqualified in the process? |
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Post Options Quote Reply Posted: 17 May 19 at 3:38pm | ||
Yes agree rule 16 applies, but if there is 3/4 of a boat length between them, then even if B headed up to head to wind i'd still think that would give A room to keep clear. A doesn't have mark room as there isn't any, so if they are luffed in to the CB by B, or don't keep clear of B because they are avoiding the CB then surely A is at fault? Isn't this why you always approach the CB on lay, so you can't be squeezed out. And also why it is dangerous to sit to port of the CB in a left to right current as boats to leeward will drift up on you? I'm thinking of this where boat are racked up for a start almost stationary. Maybe the OP means the two boats are reaching toward the CB with a gap the leeward boat closes at the last second? I think that goes back to rule 16 and will depend on how late the luff was. If I was B I'd be telling A they had no room rights and sailing a course that left no room. What do you think about the first couple of seconds of this video? |
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Rupert
Really should get out more Joined: 11 Aug 04 Location: Whitefriars sc Online Status: Offline Posts: 8956 |
Post Options Quote Reply Posted: 17 May 19 at 7:30pm | ||
Possibly too aggressive, but it's certainly happened to me and I suspect I have done it, too, certainly have when no committee boat is there. The leeward boat didn't even go above close-hauled as far as I could see.
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Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686
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ClubRacer
Far too distracted from work Joined: 26 Sep 15 Online Status: Offline Posts: 210 |
Post Options Quote Reply Posted: 17 May 19 at 9:13pm | ||
In that same article I posted Mark mentions a situation where A + B are in the middle of the line with no boats around them. A is stationary and going sideways into B. He then goes on to say A should sheet sails in to prevent him slipping sideways into B even if that means A crosses the start line. Obviously if its a U flag situation A isn't going to do that and will probably opt for the penalty turns instead ruining the start for B |
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JimC
Really should get out more Joined: 17 May 04 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 6649 |
Post Options Quote Reply Posted: 17 May 19 at 10:03pm | ||
RRS 44.1b
So if you try and dodge being over the line by breaking a rule you're going to score letters anyway. Edited by JimC - 17 May 19 at 10:04pm |
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Brass
Really should get out more Joined: 24 Mar 08 Location: Australia Online Status: Offline Posts: 1146 |
Post Options Quote Reply Posted: 21 May 19 at 12:52pm | ||
Edited by Brass - 21 May 19 at 1:02pm |
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Post Options Quote Reply Posted: 21 May 19 at 3:21pm | ||
I think @2 seconds I'd headed up and we're both still clear behind the CV and B could have tacked out. But, with this thread in mind and it's not so clear cut, probably I was 1-2 seconds late on my trigger which makes it closer on whether I gave them time to react.
Black would have stood more chance of tacking out if they hadn't got their pole out 2 foot! We're good mates and even as he was sliding in he was apologising, then did turns. You rack up on the start line on starboard and below the lay for the committee... you think you have all the rights. But then you change course on the gun and that lays you open to 'room to keep clear' 15/16. Similar to a port taker claiming you headed up and they could no longer cross you at the gun. Had we not been next to the CV would it be different? If someone reached down on you like that mid line and you headed up you'd never lose protest. So is it that you need to only to give them room between yourself and them for them to keep clear, but also room between them and another object (in this case the CB)?
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Fatboi
Posting king Joined: 09 Aug 16 Location: Hampshire Online Status: Offline Posts: 189 |
Post Options Quote Reply Posted: 21 May 19 at 3:38pm | ||
I am sure the protest committee would also agree that he could have also let his sails out and stopped, which would have avoided a collision.
If you have your sails in and end up on top of a boat to leeward you are always going to struggle to claim you were in the right.
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Brass
Really should get out more Joined: 24 Mar 08 Location: Australia Online Status: Offline Posts: 1146 |
Post Options Quote Reply Posted: 21 May 19 at 11:00pm | ||
So you were a little late pulling the trigger, but you made it in time.
Yes, being close to the CV (or any other object) makes a difference. In clear water, a leeward boat luffing and failing to give room to a windward boat to keep clear will be all about the rate of turn. Once there is an object to windward constraining where the windward boat can go, failure to give room to keep clear arises from the leeward boat coming up and reducing the space between herself and the object to windward so that the windward boat cannot fit through it. This looks a bit like rule 19, but it's different: while rule 19 applies (when it applies) to a leeward boat changing course it also applies to a leeward boat sailing a straight course, rule 16 applies only to a boat changing course, and in particular applies at starting marks, and windward give way racing boats when rule 19 does not
Edited by Brass - 22 May 19 at 12:01am |
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Brass
Really should get out more Joined: 24 Mar 08 Location: Australia Online Status: Offline Posts: 1146 |
Post Options Quote Reply Posted: 23 May 19 at 7:49am | ||
If it was possible for A, by a seamanlike action, which would include sheeting in and advancing, to keep clear of B, then A has room to keep clear and B does not break rule 16. But, depending on the exact relative positions of the boats and the conditions, it might be difficult for B to persuade a protest committee that it was indeed possible for A to accelerate enough to keep clear. Referring to a U Flag start, perhaps you were thinking that room included space to comply with the rules, namely rule 30.3 U Flag Rule. The definition of room only includes space to comply with a rule of Part 2 When Boats Meet and rule 31. Room does not include room to comply with rule 30.3 and a right of way boat changing course is quite at liberty to push a give-way boat across the starting line. As others have said, A doesn't have the option of not responding and taking a rule 44 penalty in preference to going over the line early. In Match Racing that would be a double penalty on A.
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