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Laser vs RS Aero for 2024

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Poll Question: Which Boat?
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CT249 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote CT249 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 May 19 at 12:15am
Originally posted by Cirrus

By the way, the classes you seem to espouse are pretty far on the conservative side of sailing.....

You are missing the point totally here .. I am not proposing ANY future classes myself. None of the officially  assessed craft are at the cuttng edge of things either, whoever sugegsted that ?  The point is that the Laser came in because people of the day were prepared to really consider the 'new' and alternatives.... and move on from the conservative arguments of that time and  day. 

.....Today the same arguments are being used to 'defend' the same boat - the Laser  - Do you not see any irony whatsever ??   I've owned six of them over the years - but frankly that was then - this is now.  Cheer up chicken - you are still very likely to see the Laser retained in part  or in whole and for another cycle yet imo.

I'm not missing the point - the issue is that your claims are incorrect. The arguments used to defend the FD and bring in the Laser etc were NOT the same arguments that are being used to defend the Laser. This is easy to prove - look for example at a Washington Post article that says the Laser was brought in "to open a door to young racers who lack the finances to mount expensive campaigns in more costly boats...the little Laser is supposed to be the working-class sailor's route to the world's top competition." As Rupert noted, other arguments in favour of bringing in the Laser reflected the class' popularity.

The FD's defence was NOT like the defence the Laser class is putting up - see for example the summary from the class in the Spring 1992 Trapeze magazine. I'm about to leave for a training weekend but I can find more evidence later. But basically, since the facts in the situations are actually completely different, there is no irony whatsoever!

It's not necessarily "conservative" to say that a class should stay in the Games. Just as the boats you fostered can be called "conservative" but are actually fine boats that could be chosen by someone for perfectly logical reasons that have nothing to do with conservatism, a belief that sailing would be better off with the Laser in the Olympics is something that can be the result of perfectly logical reasons that have nothing to do with conservatism. Arguably, labelling a choice as "conservative" is merely arguing the man in some ways.

Finally, as noted earlier if favouring the Laser is called "conservative" then the same label can be thrown at those who favour the Aero instead of a kitefoiler, Waszp, etc. In fact it does seem odd to campaign for such a minor change to "move sailing forward" when the outer reaches of sailing have gone so far beyond the Aero and Laser in many ways. Just look at speed as one measure. The Aero is 2.5% quicker than the Laser, but the Waszp has a provisional yardstick of 60% quicker than the Laser and the kite is much quicker still. If a newer and faster class is the aim, why take on all the pain for so little gain?  If we want to "take sailing forward", why only go forward by inches instead of by miles? 

PS - since you appear to think my position is based on personal preference, it's relevant to say that after being in various classes that have been adopted or dropped, I would personally prefer if my classes were NOT in the Games so I am NOT speaking from self interest.


Edited by CT249 - 17 May 19 at 12:17am
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CT249 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote CT249 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 May 19 at 12:34am
Regarding an earlier post; there was a small Finn class in existence before it was selected for Scandinavian competition, which then led to Games selection. In fact if it wasn't for the fact that the plans were published in a magazine and 25 sailors had built them, Sarby would not have entered the trials because the Finn had failed to win the design competition.

The FD was selected as an International class before it was selected for the Games and I think it was reasonably popular before it was selected. Obviously the Dragon, Yngling, Star and Europe had existing fleets.

One interesting point is how often the advocates for new classes have been wrong with their predictions. When Paul Henderson was promoting the adoption of a skiff, he said he thought (or hoped) it would lead to a host of similar classes, just as the "FD trials" had spurred the development of the 420, 470, Korsar, 490, 505 and a host of other trapeze boats. History has shown us that the 49er hasn't had anything like that sort of impact.

Similarly, the RSX was supposed to link Olympic sailors with mainstream windsurfers, which it hasn't. Arguably the gap between the mainstream and the Olympic and feeder class has widened since the RSX came along. Olympic match racing didn't spur more widespread match racing, as they claimed it would. The Nacra 17 doesn't seem to have kicked off widespread interest in foiling cats. Perhaps the Olympics have much less ability to influence the mainstream of the sport than we think. That makes one wonder how much Olympic sailing can influence non-sailors, too.


Edited by CT249 - 17 May 19 at 1:07am
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CT249 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote CT249 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 May 19 at 1:06am
Originally posted by Oli

Originally posted by CT249

Originally posted by Oli

how many run the marathon in sandals/ barefoot?

why develop anything at all? lets all race boats akin to the golden hinde...

like i said nothing wrong with a laser but for example why not look at it from an eco front, we shouldn't be using new built boats built to outdated methods, sailing has sold itself, in part, as an eco sport, and from what i see it seriously misses that remit.

time to evolve.

 
From an eco point of view it's lunacy to make the existing Olympic programme Lasers get replaced by Aeros. How much eco damage is done if every boat from an existing fleet (and we NEED fleets, not just one or two boats for each country) is put aside and replaced by new boats?


guess it would need to be measured at whats the best outcome, is making thousands of new lasre each year using less eco methods better than making a modern boat that has a more eco friendly construction?

It would be interesting to do the sums on the renewability side. I recently checked out the ecological cost of carbon fibre big boats, and it was horrifying in terms of greenhouse gases alone. Is 'glass any better? Carbon spars consume lots of electricity but so would the Laser's tin rig. 

Perhaps the whole area has been explored with so little detail that we really don't know which option is the best?
 


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JimC View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 May 19 at 6:06am
High tech boat building can be horribly wasteful. Peel ply, bleeder film, vac bags...
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H2 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote H2 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 May 19 at 7:37am
Originally posted by Oinks

Who effing cares. Whatever boat is chosen, the guys who do the Olympic stuff will sail em and bin em. They just want to sit on something and get a medal. It really doesn't make an effing ounce of difference to what most of us do each Sunday.

100% with you on this!
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JimC View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 May 19 at 7:40am
Originally posted by H2

Originally posted by Oinks

Who effing cares.
100% with you on this!


As the subject has created about three times as much activity here and on SA as anything else in the last month or so its quite clear that lots of people care.

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Cirrus View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Cirrus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 May 19 at 8:37am
......its quite clear that lots of people care.

But usually not the ones who do know what will really happen now !  Wink    My 'vote' would be on a standard fudge that keeps the 'Laser' (if we can still call it that !!) in the Olympic circus for now in part or in whole.  The assessment trials, some cynics will say,  were really all about sorting out the politics of the process so selection decisons could not easily be challenged in the future ('They' were already subject to having the bars rattled, after all, by one wantabe supplier with a related gripe so I hear).  This might even have had some bearing on things as they were assessed some could speculate ...

The bonus of this however was that the Laser 'family' if you can call it that  (that VERY dysfunctional family mind you) got a couple of shots across the bows to 'encourage' them to sort themselves out post haste.   If they don't, and there are few public signs of it most can see,  then this hardly supports their position in the future. 

But in the end .... yes its right not many in the greater world do really care that much except as ball to kick around these forums. 
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mozzy View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote mozzy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 May 19 at 7:23am
And we present to you the Aero 6...


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By The Lee View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote By The Lee Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 May 19 at 7:27am
I think this is the right move on the part of rs as the 7 was obviously unsuitable for women
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davidyacht View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote davidyacht Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 May 19 at 7:59am
I am waiting for the Aero 8 ... I do like symmetry 
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