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Post Options Post Options   Quote ClubRacer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Apr 19 at 7:13pm
I honestly cant think of a situation where you would be unable to give mark room as per 18.2f apart from if there is an obstruction 
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Apr 19 at 11:01pm
Originally posted by RS400atC

Yellow is failing to keep clear of Blue when she tacks, as Blue could have hit her just by luffing a little.

I don't agree that that is what the diagram is showing.

Definitions:  Keep Clear
Keep Clear A boat keeps clear of a right-of-way boat
(a) if the right-of-way boat can sail her course with no need to take avoiding action and,
(b) when the boats are overlapped, if the right-of-way boat can also change course in both directions without immediately making contact.

The diagram does not show B, the right of way boat changing course or taking any other action to avoid Y.

Once the boats become overlapped, the diagram shows plenty of daylight between B and Y.

The test for the second limb of the definition of keep clear is not 'could have hit her by luffing just a little'.

The test is whether the right of way boat can change course without immediately making contact.

Originally posted by ClubRacer

The ability to animate it exactly how it happened on the water is limiting. 

Diagrams only show what the drawer had in mind to show when the diagram was drawn, and what they can achieve with the tools available.

It might be that evidence in a protest hearing would clarify how close boats were.


Edited by Brass - 22 Apr 19 at 11:07pm
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Sam.Spoons Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Apr 19 at 11:17pm
Originally posted by RS400atC

Originally posted by Sam.Spoons

But is Blue allowed to change course to prevent Yellow from keeping clear (which is what a luff would be)?


True, while they are on different tacks, the definition of keep clear does not allow for the RoW boat to be able to alter course.
However, the boat on port's entitlement to be able to keep clear does not mean the starboard boat has to allow it room to tack.

I would read that to mean "if Y can complete a tack without B having to alter course to keep clear the B cannot alter course to prevent Y from doing so"

If the port boat can only keep clear by aborting its tack and carrying on on port, it would probably have to do so? So blue can head up at least until yellow has no option but to complete the tack?


Not sure I understand that

In practice, if this becomes a protest, it will be a case that blue alters course believing yellow has tacked too close. It will be different views of exactly how the boats were positioned.

If Blue believes Yellow has tacked too close he must avoid contact and protest that he took avoiding action to do so, he should sail on without changing course until it becomes clear that Y is not keeping clear then take avoiding action. But I'm unclear as to on whom the onus of proof falls.
 


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Post Options Post Options   Quote RS400atC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Apr 19 at 5:19am
Originally posted by Brass

Originally posted by RS400atC

Yellow is failing to keep clear of Blue when she tacks, as Blue could have hit her just by luffing a little.

I don't agree that that is what the diagram is showing.

Definitions:  Keep Clear
Keep Clear A boat keeps clear of a right-of-way boat
(a) if the right-of-way boat can sail her course with no need to take avoiding action and,
(b) when the boats are overlapped, if the right-of-way boat can also change course in both directions without immediately making contact.

The diagram does not show B, the right of way boat changing course or taking any other action to avoid Y.....
Diagrams only show what the drawer had in mind to show when the diagram was drawn, and what they can achieve with the tools available.

It might be that evidence in a protest hearing would clarify how close boats were.

The way the animation appears to me, the bow of B gets pretty close to Y at one point.
It becomes a judgement as to how close is acceptable.

The skipper of B would be thinking 'did I really miss that?' Going on the view from the back of the boat.


Does keeping clear always imply a significant 'clearance' or is missing by a micron as good as a mile?
It will depend on the boats and the circumstances I should think?
If we are talking light boats and puffy breeze, or maybe some waves, then would Y have 'failed to keep clear' if they did not allow B space to accelerate in a likely puff?

If B is obviously not even able to hit Y if they tried before Y is close-hauled, the whole thing is a non-event.

In a respectable fleet, both boats would be having a bad day anyway as they've both under-layed the mark, niether would be terribly well placed if you added in a few more boats...
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Apr 19 at 6:18am
Originally posted by RS400atC

Originally posted by Brass

Originally posted by RS400atC

Yellow is failing to keep clear of Blue when she tacks, as Blue could have hit her just by luffing a little.

I don't agree that that is what the diagram is showing.

Definitions:  Keep Clear
Keep Clear A boat keeps clear of a right-of-way boat
(a) if the right-of-way boat can sail her course with no need to take avoiding action and,
(b) when the boats are overlapped, if the right-of-way boat can also change course in both directions without immediately making contact.

The diagram does not show B, the right of way boat changing course or taking any other action to avoid Y.....
Diagrams only show what the drawer had in mind to show when the diagram was drawn, and what they can achieve with the tools available.

It might be that evidence in a protest hearing would clarify how close boats were.

The way the animation appears to me, the bow of B gets pretty close to Y at one point.
It becomes a judgement as to how close is acceptable.

The skipper of B would be thinking 'did I really miss that?' Going on the view from the back of the boat.


Does keeping clear always imply a significant 'clearance' or is missing by a micron as good as a mile?
It will depend on the boats and the circumstances I should think?
If we are talking light boats and puffy breeze, or maybe some waves, then would Y have 'failed to keep clear' if they did not allow B space to accelerate in a likely puff?

If B is obviously not even able to hit Y if they tried before Y is close-hauled, the whole thing is a non-event.

In a respectable fleet, both boats would be having a bad day anyway as they've both under-layed the mark, niether would be terribly well placed if you added in a few more boats...

If a right of way boat does not take any action to avoid a give way boat and there is no contact then the right of way boat had no need to take avoiding action, and the give way boat has kept clear.

In the absence of contact, there has to be an avoiding action by the right of way boat for a right of way protest to succeed.

Case 50 states

When, after considering all the evidence, a protest committee finds that S did not change course or that there was not a genuine and reasonable apprehension of collision on her part, it should dismiss her protest.

Boats get 'pretty close' to one another on the race course all the time:  that's what racing is all about.

The considerations about existing conditions are those we take into account when considering  failing to give room, and your reference to 'did not allow B space' is, likewise a consideration about room, not about keeping clear.

We always need to keep 'giving room' and 'keeping clear' separate.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote mozzy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Apr 19 at 10:03am
Originally posted by Brass

Boats  were neither overlapped nor in a clear ahead/astern orientation when the first of them reached the zone, so rule 18.2b and c do not apply. 
Surely the boats were overlapped and yellow is the outside boat as they enter the zone?
One boat is clear astern of another when her hull and equipment in normal position are behind a line abeam from the aftermost point of the other boat’s hull and equipment in normal position. The other boat is clear ahead. They overlap when neither is clear astern.
Neither is clear astern, so they must be overlapped? And if they are overlapped as they enter the zone then yellow is on the outside?

Rule 18 is not turned on yet because they are on opposite tacks on a beat to windward. However, the rule turns on as yellow tacks to starboard. 

At this point yellow goes from overlapped outside, to clear ahead to then overlapped inside all during the turn of their tack. 

Rule 18.2a suggests that once Yellow is on starboard it has mark room as it is the inside boat, however, 18.2b applies because when the first of them entered the zone (yellow), the outside boat at that moment (yellow) shall give the inside boat (blue) mark-room.  

Here rule 18.2.c (2) seems to apply, where the outside boat becomes overlapped inside, suggesting yellow should allow blue room to sail her proper course. 


Edited by mozzy - 30 Apr 19 at 10:13am
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Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Apr 19 at 10:19am
Definitions! Always check the definitions...

Clear Astern and Clear Ahead; Overlap One boat is clear astern of another
when her hull and equipment in normal position are behind a line abeam
from the aftermost point of the other boat’s hull and equipment in normal
position. The other boat is clear ahead. They overlap when neither is clear
astern. However, they also overlap when a boat between them overlaps both.
These terms always apply to boats on the same tack. They apply to boats on
opposite tacks only when rule 18 applies between them or when both boats
are sailing more than ninety degrees from the true wind
.

So they weren't overlapped as they entered the zone because they were on opposite tacks.

Edited by JimC - 30 Apr 19 at 10:20am
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Sam.Spoons Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Apr 19 at 10:19am
That definition does not apply for boats on opposite tacks unless Rule 18 applies and rule 18.1 says :- "Rule 18 applies between boats when they are required to leave a mark on the same side and at least one of them is in the zone. However, it does not apply
  1. (a)  between boats on opposite tacks on a beat to windward,

  2. (b)  between boats on opposite tacks when the proper course at the

    mark for one but not both of them is to tack,"




Edited by Sam.Spoons - 30 Apr 19 at 10:20am
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Post Options Post Options   Quote mozzy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Apr 19 at 11:35am
You're correct. I was thinking it was true at leeward marks, so must be true at the windward. 

But boats at a leeward mark, on opposite tacks are overlapped, because either they are on not a beat to a windward and rule 18 applies, regardless of them being on different tack, or because they're more than 90 degrees of true wind. 

That makes sense... carry on... as you were. 
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