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starboard rounding rights |
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ClubRacer
Far too distracted from work Joined: 26 Sep 15 Online Status: Offline Posts: 210 |
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Topic: starboard rounding rights Posted: 22 Apr 19 at 7:13pm |
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I honestly cant think of a situation where you would be unable to give mark room as per 18.2f apart from if there is an obstruction
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Brass
Really should get out more Joined: 24 Mar 08 Location: Australia Online Status: Offline Posts: 1146 |
Post Options Quote Reply Posted: 22 Apr 19 at 11:01pm | |||
I don't agree that that is what the diagram is showing. Definitions: Keep Clear
Once the boats become overlapped, the diagram shows plenty of daylight between B and Y. The test for the second limb of the definition of keep clear is not 'could have hit her by luffing just a little'. The test is whether the right of way boat can change course without immediately making contact.
Diagrams only show what the drawer had in mind to show when the diagram was drawn, and what they can achieve with the tools available. It might be that evidence in a protest hearing would clarify how close boats were.
Edited by Brass - 22 Apr 19 at 11:07pm |
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Sam.Spoons
Really should get out more Joined: 07 Mar 12 Location: Manchester UK Online Status: Offline Posts: 3398 |
Post Options Quote Reply Posted: 22 Apr 19 at 11:17pm | |||
I would read that to mean "if Y can complete a tack without B having to alter course to keep clear the B cannot alter course to prevent Y from doing so"
Not sure I understand that
If Blue believes Yellow has tacked too close he must avoid contact and protest that he took avoiding action to do so, he should sail on without changing course until it becomes clear that Y is not keeping clear then take avoiding action. But I'm unclear as to on whom the onus of proof falls.
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Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish" |
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RS400atC
Really should get out more Joined: 04 Dec 08 Online Status: Offline Posts: 3011 |
Post Options Quote Reply Posted: 23 Apr 19 at 5:19am | |||
The way the animation appears to me, the bow of B gets pretty close to Y at one point. It becomes a judgement as to how close is acceptable. The skipper of B would be thinking 'did I really miss that?' Going on the view from the back of the boat. Does keeping clear always imply a significant 'clearance' or is missing by a micron as good as a mile? It will depend on the boats and the circumstances I should think? If we are talking light boats and puffy breeze, or maybe some waves, then would Y have 'failed to keep clear' if they did not allow B space to accelerate in a likely puff? If B is obviously not even able to hit Y if they tried before Y is close-hauled, the whole thing is a non-event. In a respectable fleet, both boats would be having a bad day anyway as they've both under-layed the mark, niether would be terribly well placed if you added in a few more boats...
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Brass
Really should get out more Joined: 24 Mar 08 Location: Australia Online Status: Offline Posts: 1146 |
Post Options Quote Reply Posted: 23 Apr 19 at 6:18am | |||
If a right of way boat does not take any action to avoid a give way boat and there is no contact then the right of way boat had no need to take avoiding action, and the give way boat has kept clear. In the absence of contact, there has to be an avoiding action by the right of way boat for a right of way protest to succeed. Case 50 states Boats get 'pretty close' to one another on the race course all the time: that's what racing is all about. The considerations about existing conditions are those we take into account when considering failing to give room, and your reference to 'did not allow B space' is, likewise a consideration about room, not about keeping clear. We always need to keep 'giving room' and 'keeping clear' separate.
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Post Options Quote Reply Posted: 30 Apr 19 at 10:03am | |||
One boat is clear astern of another when her hull and equipment in normal position are behind a line abeam from the aftermost point of the other boat’s hull and equipment in normal position. The other boat is clear ahead. They overlap when neither is clear astern. Neither is clear astern, so they must be overlapped? And if they are overlapped as they enter the zone then yellow is on the outside? Rule 18 is not turned on yet because they are on opposite tacks on a beat to windward. However, the rule turns on as yellow tacks to starboard. At this point yellow goes from overlapped outside, to clear ahead to then overlapped inside all during the turn of their tack. Rule 18.2a suggests that once Yellow is on starboard it has mark room as it is the inside boat, however, 18.2b applies because when the first of them entered the zone (yellow), the outside boat at that moment (yellow) shall give the inside boat (blue) mark-room. Here rule 18.2.c (2) seems to apply, where the outside boat becomes overlapped inside, suggesting yellow should allow blue room to sail her proper course.
Edited by mozzy - 30 Apr 19 at 10:13am |
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JimC
Really should get out more Joined: 17 May 04 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 6648 |
Post Options Quote Reply Posted: 30 Apr 19 at 10:19am | |||
Definitions! Always check the definitions...
So they weren't overlapped as they entered the zone because they were on opposite tacks. Edited by JimC - 30 Apr 19 at 10:20am |
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Sam.Spoons
Really should get out more Joined: 07 Mar 12 Location: Manchester UK Online Status: Offline Posts: 3398 |
Post Options Quote Reply Posted: 30 Apr 19 at 10:19am | |||
That definition does not apply for boats on opposite tacks unless Rule 18 applies and rule 18.1 says :- "Rule 18 applies between boats when they are required to leave a mark on the same side and at least one of them is in the zone. However, it does not apply
Edited by Sam.Spoons - 30 Apr 19 at 10:20am |
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Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish" |
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Post Options Quote Reply Posted: 30 Apr 19 at 11:35am | |||
You're correct. I was thinking it was true at leeward marks, so must be true at the windward.
But boats at a leeward mark, on opposite tacks are overlapped, because either they are on not a beat to a windward and rule 18 applies, regardless of them being on different tack, or because they're more than 90 degrees of true wind. That makes sense... carry on... as you were.
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Post Options Quote Reply Posted: 19 Jul 19 at 10:34am | |||
What do you think about this? Video seems to be suggesting that blue boat is exonerated from breaking rule 13 (rule 21), if as they go from starboard to port they are overlapped inside. However, if they are not overlapped, and as they couldn't be overlapped or clear ahead as they entered the zone (opposite tacks) then they would break rule 13.
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