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ILCA drop LPE as a builder

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Daniel Holman View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Daniel Holman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 May 19 at 11:14am
Graeme - some of your points are valid but re resin, the construction manual will mandate how much in weight finds its way into the part. Even if you have surplus which will depend on temperature, which will likely be controlled.

Further, the motivation for all of this skulduggery just doesn’t exist in the laser class, as the biggest prizes in laser sailing, ie the laser worlds and olympics, are sailed in a supplied fleet of boats straight from the (same!) factory. You get what you’re given.

I dare say that a so motivated individual could cheat, but who remembers who won Kiel week or Hyères or spa (Holland regatta) in 1996? Who cares? We know who won laser worlds and olympics In 1996.

End of the day it’s usually the same person anYway most years.

Biggest relative boatspeed differences ive ever seen have been in lasers, and it’s all down to technique.
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iGRF View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote iGRF Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 May 19 at 11:27am
Originally posted by Daniel Holman

Graeme - some of your points are valid but re resin, the construction manual will mandate how much in weight finds its way into the part. Even if you have surplus which will depend on temperature, which will likely be controlled.

Further, the motivation for all of this skulduggery just doesn’t exist in the laser class, as the biggest prizes in laser sailing, ie the laser worlds and olympics, are sailed in a supplied fleet of boats straight from the (same!) factory. You get what you’re given.

I dare say that a so motivated individual could cheat, but who remembers who won Kiel week or Hyères or spa (Holland regatta) in 1996? Who cares? We know who won laser worlds and olympics In 1996.

End of the day it’s usually the same person anYway most years.

Biggest relative boatspeed differences ive ever seen have been in lasers, and it’s all down to technique.


Dan, with the best will in the world, and I have nothing but the greatest respect for you and your background, education etc etc, but, you'll have to grant me the benefit of years.. Now I'll admit I know not a lot, nor have visited the latter day build facilities of the Laser, but lets face it, it's GRP 'bucket and chuck it' yes it might get measured, it might even get sprayed by robot, but warm works better than cold, just as not humid works better than humid and just as a Tuesday Boat might be better than a Friday afternoon boat in making sure all the excess is either vac bagged or rollered out. I recall a locally built class that I shall not name because the builder is still around, where for a small consideration you could get a Saturday morning light special. Factory workers are human, humans are what they are... No One Design is immune from them by accident or design.
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Daniel Holman View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Daniel Holman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 May 19 at 11:36am
Graeme - totally get your point. I’ve worked hands on in a production environment as you know, so nothing that you note comes as a surprise.
End of the day bucket and chuck it an equivalent amount of material ends up in each part, and light hulls and heavy decks are (supposed to be) paired up.
Of course 2 boats of identical weight, one could be “better built” whether due to temp, better laminators etc.
I would venture that lasers are pretty consistently mediocre, and I think that the range in ambient mediocrity in hulls does not affect racing outcomes. Further, flexible hulls in a una rig is supposed to be a benefit to some extent.
Spars I think are more material - I had top sectins between 2.6 and 3.1kg, the tolerances are just enormous and that extra wall thickness makes a big difference to stiffness.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote iGRF Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 May 19 at 3:06pm
Well I tend to agree re spars, I'm convinced our bloke in the Laser in the 2012 Olympics had a duff top section in the events I watched.

But we're off topic, and my opinion re the ILCA acting above themselves remains, there must have been all manner of bollox down the years, why now do they suddenly decide to be all self righteous and to target just one 'offender' at the end of the day you can bet your life it'll be just down to personalities and there'll be the odd agenda being self served, not that I care a tinkers cuss for it all, but nothing positive for the sport as a whole will come of it, that you can be sure of.


Edited by iGRF - 02 May 19 at 3:07pm
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davidyacht View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote davidyacht Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 May 19 at 3:46pm
Strikes me that PSE are not that motivated to sell more units, for reasons unknown and probably has little do do with sailing, but more likely due to financing, cash flow, tax breaks etc.

We also know that supply is poor and expensive in the US, which is presumably an important market, and happens to be where ICLA is located.

And my guess is that the build inspection regime and layup discrepancies are likely to come home to roost as part of the Olympic inspection procedure, and if the Olympic game is considered to be important to the class then this needs to be resolved pretty soon.  Presumably it is only due to the trials that WS has had to look as closely at the supply and quality/rule control issues.

So I can see where ICLA are coming from.  And in a way the ICLA’s primary duty must be to protect the stakeholders, i.e. the sailors from a builder who might not care if the class gets run into the ground, since there will be no game to play if there is no future supply of new boats.

Some blame must lie at WS door, in the acceptance as an International class, surely they should have examined and considered the copyright and licensing contracts and ensured ongoing compliance before granting International status?
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Post Options Post Options   Quote A2Z Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 May 19 at 3:57pm
Are the boats currently racing at Hyeres the ILCA or Laser class? I think ILCA have ben deliberately vague in an attempt to have their cake and eat it - seemingly changing the name of new boats but not the class name itself. The reports all refer to them as Lasers.

All existing Lasers are still Lasers.
Existing Lasers who join ILCA can also be called ILCAs - a sort of dual nationality thing. When raced in an ILCA event they presumably should therefore be called ILCAs, but Hyeres reports still refer to them as Lasers.
All new LP built Lasers will be Lasers but cannot be ILCAs.
All new PSA/J built ILCAs will be ILCAs and could be, but probably will not be, Lasers.

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Post Options Post Options   Quote bustinben Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 May 19 at 4:09pm
It doesn't matter what you call it, if it's got the world sailing/ilca plaque on the back of the cockpit then it's a boat that's legal to race under ILCA and World Sailing rules.

People know this boat as "Lasers" so they'll call them "Lasers" when talking about it.  Any new boats won't be advertised and sold as a "Laser" but that's what people will call them.

Don't see it is a particularly big problem tbh...  If anything it de-values LP's brand and works in ILCA's favour.


Edited by bustinben - 02 May 19 at 4:11pm
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Post Options Post Options   Quote A2Z Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 May 19 at 4:10pm
I wonder too whether this gives LP the opportunity to introduce the carbon ARC rig without having to get it through ILCA and WS etc. Just speculating...
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Post Options Post Options   Quote A2Z Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 May 19 at 4:46pm
Originally posted by bustinben


It doesn't matter what you call it, if it's got the world sailing/ilca plaque on the back of the cockpit then it's a boat that's legal to race under ILCA and World Sailing rules.
People know this boat as "Lasers" so they'll call them "Lasers" when talking about it.  Any new boats won't be advertised and sold as a "Laser" but that's what people will call them.
Don't see it is a particularly big problem tbh...  If anything it de-values LP's brand and works in ILCA's favour.


It doesn't matter what you or I call them, but it does matter what WS call them, and what the class call themselves. If only because Rasty is a litigious fella.
On the second point I disagree. If we all still call them Lasers, that doesn't do much for ILCAs branding and just re-enforces LP brand. LP will certainly continue to build and sell Lasers, and a class association for these boats will be created. At that point (surely not far away) referring to ILCAs as Lasers will only ply into LPs hands.

Actually, I hear LP are still supporting the UK Laser/ILCA (who knows?!)) Nationals, including supplying charter boats. Really confused as to how that will work!
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By The Lee View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote By The Lee Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 May 19 at 5:27pm
Yes that is a very good point as providing charter boats with no plaque is rather pointless as they won't be eligible to compete!
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