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ILCA drop LPE as a builder

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Post Options Post Options   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 May 19 at 9:32pm
Originally posted by 423zero

A2Z, have you been knocked out or just on the ropes ?
I woke this morning thinking I had better things to do with my life than contribute to this sorry mess of a story and sorrier excuse of a discussion.  Then CT249 hurls more unwarranted, abusive, insults and like a moth to a flame Iím drawn back.  

It is lazy and infantile to paint LP as the baddy and ILCA as the goody.  The reality is probably far more nuanced, but sadly in this day and age outrage and black & white vision are the norm.  Not condemning someone is viewed (and repeatedly misrepresented) as supporting them. So, if CT wishes to continue his bigoted attacks Iím afraid I will continue to respond. 
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Post Options Post Options   Quote CT249 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 May 19 at 10:30pm
Originally posted by A2Z

 
And yet you believe without question that ILCA were right to dump LP?


. Were ILCA within their rights to terminate LP's contract when they did? All sorts of reasons to doubt it.
. Are old Lasers now expected to be referred to as Lasers or ILCAs? Recent race reports on Y&Y still refer to them as Lasers.
. Is it feasible to have a class association named after a different, trademark protected, class and not your own class? Surely not!

I was NOT attacking you. I have already apologised twice for going OTT at one stage. I was responding to GRF, which is why I quoted his post. GRF has spent years abusing people and classes (for example, "fool", "politically motivated imbeciles", "outdated heaps of junk", etc) so there seemed to be no reason not to play him at his own game of making outrageous insults. 

No, I do NOT believe without question that ILCA were right to dump LP. I believe that we do not know the whole story and that we shouldn't relate and comment on unproven allegations as if they were proven facts, especially when those unproven allegations could be seen to imply that the volunteers on whom our sport relies are incompetent or worse.  

A search on WIPO's database shows that some car companies have taken out trademarks like "Ford Owner's Club" while organisations like Porsche owners clubs have their own trademarks. That may indicate that a trademark over an item does not prohibit the use of that mark in the name of an owner's association. Trademark rights are normally limited to goods and services which are identical or similar with those for which the trademark is registered, and than another company may use the same mark for goods and services that are not similar. It seems highly likely that selling boats will not be considered to be similar to running a class organisation therefore the LP trademark will not be breached by ILCA. 

Under the "doctrine of exhaustion" it appears that an old boat that was sold as a Laser will always be a Laser. 









Edited by CT249 - 02 May 19 at 6:37am
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Post Options Post Options   Quote CT249 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 May 19 at 10:55pm
Originally posted by bdu98252

 
Cycling is not a good example as whilst the rules are defined strictly there are a number of bike manufacturers making a profit from selling bikes that whilst branded separately I doubt the bike brand at the tour de france is the deciding factor. The laser manual states how you build the boat making it significantly more restrictive than the cycling world in addition to them being as near identical as possible. So yes sailing has more classes but something like a Solo is more equivalent to bikes and not the one design classes like a laser. 

It's not about the tightness of one set of class rules in particular, but about the tightness of the rules of one sport compared to another. Many club events and most major events in road cycling require bikes to conform to a fairly tight set of rules; frames and wheels have to be approved, there are dimensional limits, a minimum weight, geometry restrictions, and rules that mean that no custom gear can be used. There are basically no major UCI road, CX, track or TT events that allow bikes that don't fit these rules, and many local and club events also don't allow non-conforming bikes.

It's a bit like the way it would be if World Sailing said "the Olympics, all the major world dinghy sailing championships and races at clubs affiliated with national bodies shall only be sailed in approved mass-production boats that fit the Merlin Rocket class rules".  In contrast, dinghy sailing has official world titles in classes as diverse as the Mirrors, Aeros, Moths and 18 Foot Skiffs, as well as classes like Merlins, Moths, Cherubs and 12 Foot Skiffs that allow far more diversity than the UCI bike rules do. So dinghy sailing doesn't seem to be as restrictive as GRF says, when compared to something like the world's most popular "equipment intensive" sport. 







Edited by CT249 - 02 May 19 at 12:05am
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Post Options Post Options   Quote CT249 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 May 19 at 1:30am
Originally posted by iGRF

Aussis not cheating?

Denial is that a river in Egypt?

I didn't deny that some Aussies in some classes may have cheated at some time, just as people from other countries may have cheated, so I'm not denying anything. However, the fact that one party to a dispute has alleged that the PSA boats were illegal does NOT prove that they were illegal.

If (as some have alleged) the sail numbers on the list of alleged "cheater" boats can be used to see who has raced them, then the sailors come from nationalities as diverse as Dutch (Heiner), Brazilian (Schiedt), German (Buhl), French, NZ, and Cypriot (Kontides). If there is any "cheating" that sailors can easily find out about then many of the world's best must know about it but, for some strange reason, be keeping a vow of silence.

If some sailors are winning because of easy access to PSA boats then it is strange that male sailors from that country win Olympic gold and world championships on boats supplied by LP, while women from the same country don't do as well no matter what boat they are on. 

By the way, if the recent PSA hulls are all faster then I would be at more disadvantage than anyone in this thread, because I have to race so many of those boats on my pristine older hull. Oddly enough in the conditions when stiffness means speed my boat seems really fast even against recent world champions in my division, who sail new PSA boats. The only boat I know in Australia that is particularly cherished as a "fast" boat is actually a Japanese hull.  The fact is that we have not been given sufficient evidence to say that any boats were illegal and no evidence that we should use to slur the volunteers who run the sport!

As far as your insults about the Mistral and Contender classes go, you are way off course. The Prodigy you promoted was an example where your group tried to impose restrictions, by taking the class away from the IMCO board that suited many of us to a board that was often slower, had a rig that was too hard for many people to use, and which would not fit well in with the Raceboard class. Your group was trying to restrict our choice to sail what we liked in the IMCO class, and discriminate against certain IMCO sailors.

Similarly, changing the Contender to suit you is a case of you imposing your desires on people who are happy with what they have. Like so many of your posts, it would also be blatant discrimination against people who cannot afford to buy a new boat to remain competitive. Many sports have kit that favours certain people, but in sailing you can almost always find kit that suits your physique because sailing is freer of regulations than many other sports.




Edited by CT249 - 02 May 19 at 3:17am
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 May 19 at 7:49am
However, the fact that one party to a dispute has alleged that the PSA boats were illegal does NOT prove that they were illegal.
If there is any "cheating" that sailors can easily find out about then many of the world's best must know about it but, for some strange reason, be keeping a vow of silence.
The fact is that we have not been given sufficient evidence to say that any boats were illegal and no evidence that we should use to slur the volunteers who run the sport!



The letter is not an allegation from a builder with a vested interest, it is an official defect notification from ILCA. What would be an unsubstantiated allegation would be the claim that this was sustained, deliberate mechanical doping that was subsequently hushed to avoid a scandal. But I donít think anyone has made that allegation?

But this issue is not relevant to whether ILCA were right to unapprove LP as a builder, right to change the name/logo or right to claim their actions had the support of WS.

Edited by A2Z - 02 May 19 at 7:50am
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Post Options Post Options   Quote 423zero Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 May 19 at 9:13am
Jimc,
Are you still a Frog?
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Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 May 19 at 9:54am
Moi? porquoi? Non comprendo.

Edited by JimC - 02 May 19 at 9:57am
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Post Options Post Options   Quote bustinben Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 May 19 at 10:16am
Originally posted by A2Z

However, the fact that one party to a dispute has alleged that the PSA boats were illegal does NOT prove that they were illegal.
If there is any "cheating" that sailors can easily find out about then many of the world's best must know about it but, for some strange reason, be keeping a vow of silence.
The fact is that we have not been given sufficient evidence to say that any boats were illegal and no evidence that we should use to slur the volunteers who run the sport!



The letter is not an allegation from a builder with a vested interest, it is an official defect notification from ILCA. What would be an unsubstantiated allegation would be the claim that this was sustained, deliberate mechanical doping that was subsequently hushed to avoid a scandal. But I donít think anyone has made that allegation?

But this issue is not relevant to whether ILCA were right to unapprove LP as a builder, right to change the name/logo or right to claim their actions had the support of WS.

That's the exact allegation LP have made...  And you're right, it's not relevant.  It's a shameless side-channel attempt to try and undermine ILCA and to me indicates the weakness of LP's position.  If they had any rights to enforce they would be enforcing.  Instead they're posting childish sounding press releases on facebook...
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Post Options Post Options   Quote By The Lee Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 May 19 at 10:30am
Totally agree, if laser performance thought this was so wrong they should have raised it at the time and posted about it then. Instead they've waited until they need some dirt which completely undermines their argument in my view.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote iGRF Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 May 19 at 10:42am
Originally posted by CT249





Originally posted by iGRF

Aussis not cheating?

Denial is that a river in Egypt?

I didn't deny that some Aussies in some classes may have cheated at some time, just as people from other countries may have cheated, so I'm not denying anything. However, the fact that one party to a dispute has alleged that the PSA boats were illegal does NOT prove that they were illegal.
If (as some have alleged) the sail numbers on the list of alleged "cheater" boats can be used to see who has raced them, then the sailors come from nationalities as diverse as Dutch (Heiner), Brazilian (Schiedt), German (Buhl), French, NZ, and Cypriot (Kontides). If there is any "cheating" that sailors can easily find out about then many of the world's best must know about it but, for some strange reason, be keeping a vow of silence.
If some sailors are winning because of easy access to PSA boats then it is strange that male sailors from that country win Olympic gold and world championships on boats supplied by LP, while women from the same country don't do as well no matter what boat they are on.†
By the way, if the recent PSA hulls are all faster then I would be at more disadvantage than anyone in this thread, because I have to race so many of those boats on my pristine older hull. Oddly enough in the conditions when stiffness means speed my boat seems really fast even against recent world champions in my division, who sail new PSA boats. The only boat I know in Australia that is particularly cherished as a "fast" boat is actually a Japanese hull.† The fact is that we have not been given sufficient evidence to say that any boats were illegal and no evidence that we should use to slur the volunteers who run the sport!
As far as your insults about the Mistral and Contender classes go, you are way off course. The Prodigy you promoted was an example where your group tried to impose restrictions, by taking the class away from the IMCO board that suited many of us to a board that was often slower, had a rig that was too hard for many people to use, and which would not fit well in with the Raceboard class. Your group was trying to restrict our choice to sail what we liked in the IMCO class, and discriminate against certain IMCO sailors.
Similarly, changing the Contender to suit you is a case of you imposing your desires on people who are happy with what they have. Like so many of your posts, it would also be blatant discrimination against people who cannot afford to buy a new boat to remain competitive. Many sports have kit that favours certain people, but in sailing you can almost always find kit that suits your physique because sailing is freer of regulations than many other sports.





So much to answer, I'll start with the whole process of 'One Design' something I've been on record since the dawn of my time here in saying doesn't exist. Even attempts to make it exist can't possible succeed for myriad reasons, not least the weather and temperature at which things get built, even in the best climate and humidity controlled factorys which if possible would be beyond the affordability of any of us. The Japanese Laser you speak of was probably built in a warmer area where the resin flows better and goes off quicker, wets out the laminate more efficiently so less is needed. It's a fact everyone seems to know that Aussie Lasers enjoy this similar benefit and they use more glass to stiffen up areas, so they are faster. That is not necessarily cheating, Aussies can't help it if their boats are/were built more efficiently, what would be viewed as questionable 'cheating' is if they bought their boats to an event where the charter boats were supplied by another builder.

As a manufacturers representative I know the lengths some sailors go to select lighter build boards having mothers and their sons in my warehouse for hours on end opening and closing packaged boards weighing and checking them before purchase. I know for a fact the length some Olympic 'Champions' went to modify the boards illegally with mylar backed flushing strips, tuned sail battens even our southern hemisphere heroes with their centreboards drilled and a carbon tube rod batten inserted. So nothing surprises me about your blessed Laser, it would be a dream boat for 'illegal' modification with or without the class associations knowledge and sailors are no different to windsurfers I now also know.

I also knew the Olympic One design wasn't going to make it going forward and so the Mistral Prodigy was offered to the class for commercial reasons obviously, it had a better rig than the One Design, was more easy to sail, could be offered to first timers to 'try' with a smaller rig. It could still be used in low winds yet performed like the Formula type boards that the world was asking for at that period and so gave windsurfing the Hybrid and regrettably Pryde the same idea, unfortunately I wasn't around to 'sell' the idea to the sailors or warn them that they'd end up sailing something like it anyway. At the trials the One design was still way faster at all points of sailing than any of the other offerings but that wasn't the criterior that was required, what was required was the Olympic package being more 'modern' and representing what windsurfers were using.

As to the Contender if you'd remove the corks from your hat, you'd see that if it appealed to me then it would at a stroke increase its appeal by a factor of double because all the folk that are precluded from using it light weights, ladies etc, but of course that wouldn't suit the incumbents and there at a stroke you have the issue of class v commercial supplier that wishes to broaden its market and why classes are a bloody nuisance to the point they drive builders out of business in their own self interest and by the sounds of it you included, so I count you among those 'foolish' enough not to consider the implications of their self serving. Just as I condemn the actions of the ILCA for exactly the same reason. You and they are indeed acting foolishly, that is beyond any doubt in my mind.
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