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ILCA drop LPE as a builder

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RS400atC View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote RS400atC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Aug 19 at 6:15pm
Originally posted by tink






It would be a simple mod to have mast rake as a measurement in the class rules 
and simple shims bonded in during final quality check so was a truly one design boat.
Yes if you do the same for all the other variables cost with go North. 


The thing is, 200,000 Laser customers know what they're buying into and don't have a problem.
It's you that has the problem.

Were you actualy in the market for a SMOD anyway?
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tink View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote tink Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Aug 19 at 6:29pm
Originally posted by RS400atC

Originally posted by tink






It would be a simple mod to have mast rake as a measurement in the class rules 
and simple shims bonded in during final quality check so was a truly one design boat.
Yes if you do the same for all the other variables cost with go North. 


The thing is, 200,000 Laser customers know what they're buying into and don't have a problem.
It's you that has the problem.

Were you actualy in the market for a SMOD anyway?
Yes you are right on both counts. My current boat is up a change due to age and change of club. I have spend a while thinking about my next boat and I am somewhat disappointed in the lack of a truly fair one design boat on a limited budget. 
Tink
https://tinkboats.wordpress.com/

http://proasail.blogspot.com
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RS400atC View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote RS400atC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Aug 19 at 7:25pm
Even if there was a SMOD where no differences could be detected between new boats, that's all out of the window the moment the boats are no longer new. Some boats will get more scratches, some will get more fatigue and go softer. Likewise the sails will age.
But since the detectable differences between Laser sailors dimensions are hugely more noticeable than the boats, it's all good enough.
If you want fair racing on a limited budget, I think it helps to ask what you think is 'fair'.
You might consider that Laser racing is only fair when you're racing against people of similar age/weight/fitness. So long as I can accept that the people who beat me are sailing better than me, that's good enough IMHO. And the best way to be fairly sure of that is to find a bunch of people racing Lasers, buy a Laser of comparable age and the same make of replica sail.
Likewise any class will do at amateur level, but  you don't want to be too heavy/old/light/unfit/skint compared with everyone else. Find some comparable sailors you respect and race what they race. Whether it's a Laser, a Squib or an RS400, the boat is just a device to race against people.

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tink View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote tink Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Aug 19 at 7:50pm
Originally posted by RS400atC

Even if there was a SMOD where no differences could be detected between new boats, that's all out of the window the moment the boats are no longer new. Some boats will get more scratches, some will get more fatigue and go softer. Likewise the sails will age.
But since the detectable differences between Laser sailors dimensions are hugely more noticeable than the boats, it's all good enough.
If you want fair racing on a limited budget, I think it helps to ask what you think is 'fair'.
You might consider that Laser racing is only fair when you're racing against people of similar age/weight/fitness. So long as I can accept that the people who beat me are sailing better than me, that's good enough IMHO. And the best way to be fairly sure of that is to find a bunch of people racing Lasers, buy a Laser of comparable age and the same make of replica sail.
Likewise any class will do at amateur level, but  you don't want to be too heavy/old/light/unfit/skint compared with everyone else. Find some comparable sailors you respect and race what they race. Whether it's a Laser, a Squib or an RS400, the boat is just a device to race against people.

Don’t disagree with a single point that you make, I know that my current boat is only really uncompetitive in marginal planing conditions and those are, percentage wise, a small part of most races. I am the biggest influence on my performance and at times my weight / fitness puts me a competitive advantage. I fully expect that when buying a second hand boat it is very much buyer beware. 

Clearly making all boats truly one design will be very expensive but based on the Olympic report RS are working hard to get more equal boats. When I reactivated this thread it was because of the blatant advertising that there is a mechanism to select a better boat which it sounds like the manufacturer must be complicit. 
Tink
https://tinkboats.wordpress.com/

http://proasail.blogspot.com
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bustinben View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote bustinben Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Aug 19 at 8:28am
Originally posted by tink

The fact that in a one design class it is possible to ‘select’ a boat for anything other colour is quite simply wrong. 

In an ideal world, you're right.

In the ideal world, the differences between the one design boats are small enough to have a negligible effect on performance, so you turn up at the dealer and just grab the boat nearest the door.

In the real world (of lasers), there are significant differences between the boats and quality control is sub-par (maybe this will change when new builders start building and we no longer have to buy from LPE).  It's not just the things that are hard to get exactly right like rake.  Weights are different,  alignment of foils, the deck being centered over the hull, some boats leak from new...

There's no reasonable way of preventing a sailor from deliberately *not* purchasing hulls that they don't like the look of.   What would you do? Say that you have to take the next hull off the line?  The buyer would just walk away and come back another day. 

The solution is to increase quality control in production so that there aren't performance impacting differences.


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jeffers View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote jeffers Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Aug 19 at 1:56pm
Originally posted by bustinben

Originally posted by tink

The fact that in a one design class it is possible to ‘select’ a boat for anything other colour is quite simply wrong. 

In an ideal world, you're right.

In the ideal world, the differences between the one design boats are small enough to have a negligible effect on performance, so you turn up at the dealer and just grab the boat nearest the door.

In the real world (of lasers), there are significant differences between the boats and quality control is sub-par (maybe this will change when new builders start building and we no longer have to buy from LPE).  It's not just the things that are hard to get exactly right like rake.  Weights are different,  alignment of foils, the deck being centered over the hull, some boats leak from new...

There's no reasonable way of preventing a sailor from deliberately *not* purchasing hulls that they don't like the look of.   What would you do? Say that you have to take the next hull off the line?  The buyer would just walk away and come back another day. 

The solution is to increase quality control in production so that there aren't performance impacting differences.



I had a mate turn up at Long Bucky. The hull he was presented with was covered in stress cracks. Naturally he rejected it and (after a fight) they gave him a different one. You can rest assured that hull went to someone unsuspecting customer who wasnt as careful looking at their new pride and joy.
Paul
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D-Zero GBR 74
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