New Posts New Posts RSS Feed: Class proliferation...
  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Register Register  Login Login

Class proliferation...

 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <1 678910>
Author
Chris 249 View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more
Avatar

Joined: 10 May 04
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2041
Post Options Post Options   Quote Chris 249 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Feb 19 at 8:38pm
Originally posted by DiscoBall

Originally posted by getafix

Class 'proliferation' is progress.  Choice is good.  Being individual and liking what you like is OK.

Having dozens of sunday league teams, hundreds of bike manufacturers and genres and loads of different public and private golf courses and equipment manufacturers hasn't hurt participation in those sports.

When you look at the competitive parts of other kit sports like cycling or canoeing you essentially have a very small number of restricted/development 'classes'. The limitations of human muscle power probably also reduce the options and temptation for excessive technical development.  


Precisely. You don't get to the end of a cycling race and find out that your Merida has a different handicap to your mate's Giant, nor does cycling allow the equivalent of a Moth, skiff or Aero to compete.
sailcraftblog.wordpress.com

The history and design of the racing dinghy.
Back to Top
DiscoBall View Drop Down
Far too distracted from work
Far too distracted from work


Joined: 03 Jan 05
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 217
Post Options Post Options   Quote DiscoBall Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Feb 19 at 8:45pm
Originally posted by davidyacht

Surely proliferation is good if a boat brings something to the party and excites people enough to raise their level of participation, all of the OEMs have at sometime produced product that has achieved this spectacularly; the Laser 1, Topper, RS200, RS400, Aero ... I would add the 29er and 49er ... the common denominator of all these products are the identification of gaps in the market, and excellent engineering.

I guess the key word is 'their' rather than 'the'?

The Laser and Topper probably have added new people to the sport but I'd question that the other classes have done much more than move people around within it (perhaps to the detriment of classes that already existed). And given we all set such store by fleet sizes...

Ultimately it always seems (on forums or from the missives of World Sailing) that the only possible solution must be a technical one, but IMO Stonefish's post is much closer to the truth - the sport isn't great at welcoming and guiding people in their early steps.
Back to Top
Do Different View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more


Joined: 26 Jan 12
Location: North
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 980
Post Options Post Options   Quote Do Different Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Feb 19 at 8:53pm
By far most of the preceding comments have a lot of truth in them.

However.

The view of the landscape can also vary hugely depending on your point of view.

Yes quite probably to the eyes of keen racers there are too many classes to support in the current climate of reduced participation in sailing.

For keen sailors, tinkerers and experimenters perhaps the number is just right with many old and not so old to choose from and every new idea eagerly anticipated.  
Back to Top
Rupert View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more


Joined: 11 Aug 04
Location: Whitefriars sc
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 8169
Post Options Post Options   Quote Rupert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Feb 19 at 9:33pm
Saw the Maverick (the new play boat from Fusion) at the RYA principals' conference at the weekend. They are trying something a bit different (though Jo Richards had the same idea 30 years ago) in producing a multi use platform designed to simply be fun. I'll take bets that if it catches on, people will start racing them. Is this unnecessary proliferation or a new idea that might reinvigorate a section of the market? Closest I see to it is the Topper in the 70s, though I suspect that felt more radical.
Firefly 2324, Lightning 130, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446
Back to Top
Cirrus View Drop Down
Far too distracted from work
Far too distracted from work


Joined: 29 Oct 15
Location: UK
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 445
Post Options Post Options   Quote Cirrus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Feb 19 at 9:37pm
Put as simply as possible - the 'model' for racng small boats has changed.  Today handicap racing in various guises is the norm at many clubs for sure ... but classes still have plenty of 'purist' opens and both Inland and National championships available each year.  Fleet racing at club level is mourned by a few but it had a tendency to get very repetitive - same people, same courses, same location - a very standard pecking order quickly emerged and especially if the boat was not that much fun or easily accessible simply to sail or race the experience could quickly become boring for the typical 'mid-fleeter'.   Those keen to turn the clock back too often want to re-impose the 'adopted class'  rules .. rather than working to get more involved and into any sort of boatin the first place.  Class tribalism and a selective memory harking back to a 'golden age' does not help ...

If you want to bring new bloood into racing concentrate on making things more enjoyable at club level.  'Socials' back in the day were more a real recruiter than anything else and many more boats were suitable for grabbing a spare (newbie) person when regular crews occasionally did not turn up...  Many an adult or kid learnt that sailing could actually be fun and sailing clubs were good socially as well and were hooked.  So maybe more and 'better' socials and more 2 crew boats and 'fun' however you define it... plus adults as well as kids involved.  Get these basics right and then they may even race !!  The argument for 'what' should any newcomer should race is way way down list of newbie drivers in reality.    


Edited by Cirrus - 14 Feb 19 at 9:39pm
Back to Top
Chris 249 View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more
Avatar

Joined: 10 May 04
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2041
Post Options Post Options   Quote Chris 249 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Feb 19 at 9:47pm
Originally posted by JimC

Originally posted by Chris 249

   The push for this sort of change normally seems to come from people outside a class or in the industry


Got to disagree with you there. My experience of rule changes in development classes (and I still have the mental scars) is that they are very often driven by a faction within the class.

Changes pushed from outside (other than class builders) are very unusual IME. I can think of the spinnaker on the Tornado and the centremain on the Topper. While you do get people coming up to you at the Sailboat show and saying 'I'd definitely join your class if you did this' IME they are usually best ignored because 10 minuteslater they'll be saying something similar to another class, and 10 minutes after that ordering a newLaser...

From my experience, yes the driver for change in development classes often comes from within. I was referring more to the many people who sit on forums or at sailing club bars and dinghy parks and call for the Laser to adopt a new rig, for the Tasar to get a carbon pole mast, the Windsurfer class to die, etc. I think those people are the same as the ones who tell you what to do at the Sailboat show!
sailcraftblog.wordpress.com

The history and design of the racing dinghy.
Back to Top
Rupert View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more


Joined: 11 Aug 04
Location: Whitefriars sc
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 8169
Post Options Post Options   Quote Rupert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Feb 19 at 8:25am
Cirrus, you complain about people harking back to a golden age, then do it yourself by saying how good socials were back then, and how so many people got into sailing by hitching a ride. My memory involves seeing people driving home drunk and being warned about crewing for certain people as they were either crap (the better option) or (usually sugar coated) abusive.

My memory also serves up great parties and amazing races in some very diverse boats with exceptionally good sailors, but it wasn't the perfect way into sailing by any means.
Firefly 2324, Lightning 130, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446
Back to Top
423zero View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more


Joined: 08 Jan 15
Location: United Kingdom
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1539
Post Options Post Options   Quote 423zero Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Feb 19 at 10:47am
Not one mention of Mirror group news ? The Mirror, Miracle and Mirror 14/16, perhaps a similar combination of a national newspaper and useable boats ?
Back to Top
Peter Barton View Drop Down
Groupie
Groupie
Avatar

Joined: 10 Oct 05
Location: United Kingdom
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 88
Post Options Post Options   Quote Peter Barton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Feb 19 at 12:34pm
Originally posted by DiscoBall

Originally posted by davidyacht

Surely proliferation is good if a boat brings something to the party and excites people enough to raise their level of participation, all of the OEMs have at sometime produced product that has achieved this spectacularly; the Laser 1, Topper, RS200, RS400, Aero ... I would add the 29er and 49er ... the common denominator of all these products are the identification of gaps in the market, and excellent engineering.

I guess the key word is 'their' rather than 'the'?

The Laser and Topper probably have added new people to the sport but I'd question that the other classes have done much more than move people around within it (perhaps to the detriment of classes that already existed). And given we all set such store by fleet sizes...


I would challenge that regards the RS Aero.
- A significant demographic of RS Aero take up is sailors returning to the sport after a break (career, kids...) who were motivated to do so with the RS Aero's performance/reward and lightness but would not have bought back into the previous heavier options.
- Many smaller sailors (small ladies and youths in particular) would not be able to pull a heavier boat up a steep slipway singlehanded or manhandle it ashore and the RS Aero provides a viable option for them.
Back to Top
Fatboi View Drop Down
Posting king
Posting king


Joined: 09 Aug 16
Location: Hampshire
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 150
Post Options Post Options   Quote Fatboi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Feb 19 at 1:29pm
To me, sailing is starting to get a bit silly with pricing. 
If you are not bought in to it and start looking at new boats, or if you have got bitten by the bug and then want to start getting competitive and racing want to upgrade to a new boat then it is a huge sum of money! 
RS Aero, nearly 10k
Laser - 6k
OK - 10k
Solo - 9k

Double handed it is crazy - a new RS200 is 13k!!! and Race Feva 6k.

Yes, you can pick up cheaper 2nd hand boats for much less but without the expertise to upgrade them into working machines, I often find they don't work as they should and don't feel like the real specimen and are harder to sail as not set up nicely. 
This is enough to put me off borrowing old boats, but to a beginner they would feel this is normal and the sensation you get from having a well balanced, well set up boat would not exist! 
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <1 678910>

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Bulletin Board Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 9.665y
Copyright ©2001-2010 Web Wiz
Change your personal settings, or read our privacy policy