New Posts New Posts RSS Feed: So.. Laserati, shall we talk C5?
  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Register Register  Login Login

So.. Laserati, shall we talk C5?

 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <1 7891011 14>
Author
JimC View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more
Avatar

Joined: 17 May 04
Location: United Kingdom
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 6472
Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Jan 19 at 5:32pm
Yep, it looks suspiciously as if Laser Performance are trying to undermine the Class Association with that pricing. The differential has nearly nothing to do with the CA royalty. It does, however, demonstrate that LP are willing to drop a good hundred quid off the price of a new sail if it suits them, which should be a good starting point for negotiating a discount ...

Edited by JimC - 02 Jan 19 at 5:36pm
Back to Top
Chris 249 View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more
Avatar

Joined: 10 May 04
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2041
Post Options Post Options   Quote Chris 249 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Jan 19 at 2:19am
Originally posted by Sam.Spoons

And that is the inherent problem with SMODs...........

What, that many tens of thousands of sailors can get to do what they like?


sailcraftblog.wordpress.com

The history and design of the racing dinghy.
Back to Top
Do Different View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more


Joined: 26 Jan 12
Location: North
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1168
Post Options Post Options   Quote Do Different Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Jan 19 at 7:00am
As opposed to sailors buying from an effectively monopoly supplier, who is to a large extent protected from market forces and selling what is a very basic product at perceived large markups over cost of manufacture. 
Back to Top
Chris 249 View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more
Avatar

Joined: 10 May 04
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2041
Post Options Post Options   Quote Chris 249 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Jan 19 at 11:37am
But we choose that model because for us it's not an "inherent problem" but an advantage. We don't want to have a contest in which people use different kit, we want a contest in which we all use the same kit*.  We are prepared to pay extra because we get what we want - for example I'm doing a worlds in Garda on supplied SMOD kit. That's not practical in many other classes, and freighting gear in would cost me more than I will pay in "inflated prices" for kit over many years.

Many of us don't want to develop kit in conjunction with sailmakers, or turn up to the nationals after training hard and finding that our rivals have just developed a new and faster cut. To some of us, buying a "better' product like a one-off sail is of as little interest as buying a 55kg 505 with masthead spinnaker and a redesigned hull would be to most 505 fans - it's outside the rules of our game and therefore not better at all.


*within tolerances we are happy with, just as sailors of development or open-supply ODs have design tolerances they are happy with.


Edited by Chris 249 - 03 Jan 19 at 11:38am
sailcraftblog.wordpress.com

The history and design of the racing dinghy.
Back to Top
Sam.Spoons View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more


Joined: 07 Mar 12
Location: Manchester UK
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 3125
Post Options Post Options   Quote Sam.Spoons Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Jan 19 at 12:19pm
Originally posted by Chris 249

Originally posted by Sam.Spoons

And that is the inherent problem with SMODs...........

What, that many tens of thousands of sailors can get to do what they like?



Simply that prices are entirely in the hands of the manufacturer, your only options are to buy one or not to buy one. Many SMOD classes manage to walk the tightrope between maximum profit and customer satisfaction without causing accusations of profiteering but some, it seems, don't. 

With most 'traditional' one designs you can choose to buy from several different sources, you can even assemble components yourself to minimise about costs should you choose to, so there is some element of competition WRT to price.

With a Laser you can't even make up your own kicker from parts in the spares box without it taking you out of class.......
Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"
Back to Top
JimC View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more
Avatar

Joined: 17 May 04
Location: United Kingdom
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 6472
Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Jan 19 at 12:29pm
Originally posted by Do Different

selling what is a very basic product at perceived large markups over cost of manufacture.

Trouble is it's well demonstrated that if you have competing suppliers within a class then what you end up with is a premium product at a very premium price. So the actual headline costs escalate. What keeps prices down is competition between classes. If class A gets viciously expensive then people don't buy a cheap and slow class A, they buy class B.

Edited by JimC - 03 Jan 19 at 1:13pm
Back to Top
bustinben View Drop Down
Far too distracted from work
Far too distracted from work


Joined: 15 Oct 06
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 288
Post Options Post Options   Quote bustinben Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Jan 19 at 1:47pm
Originally posted by JimC

Originally posted by Do Different

selling what is a very basic product at perceived large markups over cost of manufacture. 

Trouble is it's well demonstrated that if you have competing suppliers within a class then what you end up with is a premium product at a very premium price. So the actual headline costs escalate. What keeps prices down is competition between classes. If class A gets viciously expensive then people don't buy a cheap and slow class A, they buy class B.

And that's where the Olympics undermines everything - the best sailors have to sail a particular boat so they get screwed as does anyone else who wants the competition of the best sailors.  You can't jump to another class because the people you want to race aren't sailing it and can't switch.

It's almost as if world sailing should be doing something useful like making sure that doesn't happen by signing contracts with the suppliers to restrict price rises while the boat is an olympic class or something.  The supplier is going to make a tonne of cash from all the extra free marketing and boat sales, but in return they have to keep prices stable.  Seems sensible no?


Back to Top
Sam.Spoons View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more


Joined: 07 Mar 12
Location: Manchester UK
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 3125
Post Options Post Options   Quote Sam.Spoons Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Jan 19 at 1:50pm
I disagree with the first half of that statement, the only way a trad class sailmaker (for example) gets premium prices for his sails is to have them win races. If your sails win races (i.e. are the fastest, in theory at least) people will pay more for them than the other guy who comes second. This means that the sails are better every year. SMOD sails are, basically, set in stone until the manufacturer decides to 'improve' them (and, usually, put the price up.....).

If class A gets viciously expensive then people don't buy a cheap and slow class A, they buy class B.
 
No argument with that though.......


Edited by Sam.Spoons - 03 Jan 19 at 1:51pm
Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"
Back to Top
Guests View Drop Down
Guest Group
Guest Group
Post Options Post Options   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Jan 19 at 2:24pm
Originally posted by Sam.Spoons

This means that the sails are better every year. 
Define better...

In absolute terms the sail may be getting better. But in relative terms, as other sail-makers improve their sails to, the new sails aren't going to be any better at winning races relatively, than last years... the whole fleet can on average get faster, but the whole fleet can't on average improve their position!  

If you buy a SMOD sail, it's always be the best sail for the job of winning races that you can buy. 

I do think sail-makers compete slightly within each class on price as most people aren't going to spend double on a imperceptible improvement. But most would probably spend double on a 1% gain. 

The thing that seems to keep cost in check in most none SMOD classes is the associations stepping in to ban the exotic designs and materials. 

I think the pro's of more development type boats are opening up the game to involve ones ability to select equipment and opening up the ability to select weight specific equipment. The downside is that some people will always pay someone else to make those selections and do that design on their behalf. 
 


Edited by mozzy - 03 Jan 19 at 2:27pm
Back to Top
davidyacht View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more


Joined: 29 Mar 05
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1206
Post Options Post Options   Quote davidyacht Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Jan 19 at 2:26pm
Just sold last year's sail for 400 pretty much as good as new, bought new one for 725 on winter offer.  325 for sails each year isnt so bad.  Solo class with four or five active "Trad" sailmakers, who imo put a huge amount into the class, including training days, helpful advice at events including boatpark seminars, tuning guides, telephone and online support.

I would venture that this is a better arrangement than the typical SMOD class, and particularly the LP model.
Happily living in the past
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <1 7891011 14>

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Bulletin Board Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 9.665y
Copyright ©2001-2010 Web Wiz
Change your personal settings, or read our privacy policy