J24 (Sail No. 4239) Dartmouth |
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So.. Laserati, shall we talk C5? |
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davidyacht
Really should get out more Joined: 29 Mar 05 Online Status: Offline Posts: 1345 |
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Topic: So.. Laserati, shall we talk C5? Posted: 04 Jan 19 at 11:22am |
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Chris 249 ... I should not have been so lazy as to miss out the post that I was trying to address ...
In my particular class competition seems to be at a level that keeps the sailmakers pencils sharp, particularly when winter discounts are on offer. The sails are easy to control and last in there competitive shape. They come with a host of benefits which may not be so good for you. Some of my good friends compete on the Laser Masters level, and like the concept of turning up with a sail. I would suggest that this is operating at a much higher price point than your typical Sunday warrior Laser sailor with a 10+ year old boat. I would suggest that these are the guys who are tempted into non-legal replica Laser sails due to the LP pricing model, which is a shame. Anyway, it is a free World and we all make our own choices.
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Happily living in the past
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iGRF
Really should get out more Joined: 07 Mar 11 Location: Hythe Online Status: Offline Posts: 6496 |
Post Options Quote Reply Posted: 05 Jan 19 at 4:18pm | |
So why is it I wonder that down the years, some of the obvious classes haven't gotten together to put pressure on suppliers? Classic example right now we are being ripped apart with carbon mast pricing, there are two classes, three if you count the Solution that could badly do with carbon up top, if the classes got together the spec isn't too dissimilar Solo, Streaker, for example both need carbon they have the numbers, they set the price, no more than 800 quid for the mast which is the absolute top money we should be paying in a vertical market like this. Put it out to tender. You'd have to go offshore, as well, the locals are pretty much a cartel so couldn't be trusted not to collude and break this bloody stranglehold they have. Edited by iGRF - 05 Jan 19 at 4:19pm |
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423zero
Really should get out more Joined: 08 Jan 15 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 3406 |
Post Options Quote Reply Posted: 05 Jan 19 at 4:55pm | |
I meant a purchasing group of individuals at a club, can see where you are coming from though.
I have never liked offshore manufacturing, very destructive to home industry, how can they compete against countries where labour is probably 90% lower, whole thing becomes a vicious circle.
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Cirrus
Really should get out more Joined: 29 Oct 15 Location: UK Online Status: Offline Posts: 590 |
Post Options Quote Reply Posted: 05 Jan 19 at 5:20pm | |
I have never liked offshore manufacturing, very destructive to home
industry, how can they compete against countries where labour is
probably 90% lower... All things being equal I'd like more UK/local choice as well. However many tubes today also come from NZ and Oz either as tubes or as completed masts .... these countries are not exactly known for their low(er) labour rates ! If better quality/price points for mostly dinghy tubes was available these suppliers would not remain really competitive for long. Part of the underlying problem is the GBP heading south and with indecent haste in a very uncertain market where local (boat) builders simply will not explore supplier alternatives until they have a much more steady state/ certain economic environment to make reasoned changes. Don't blame the dinghy builders - they like other (UK) manufacturers did not conspire to destabalise the economy and hope to survive whatever comes along in the next few years !! Don't expect any to switch from alloy to carbon anytime soon .... unless there is overwhelming demand for change from existing and prospective new owners and that is not likely for the same reasons at the moment... Wish on. If anyone sees a possibility of establising a new (cheap but profitable) carbon mast maker in the UK it would still not be the right time now.... I'd 'wait and see' for as long as it takes ....and so would you if you have any sense...... Nobody wants to be one of those 'Fools and their money' etc.
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Sam.Spoons
Really should get out more Joined: 07 Mar 12 Location: Manchester UK Online Status: Offline Posts: 3398 |
Post Options Quote Reply Posted: 05 Jan 19 at 5:39pm | |
When I was windsurfing one of the World's biggest manufacturers of carbon tubing for masts was Excel in Finland. By all accounts their tubes were of the highest quality. They are still in business, are they not a viable supplier of dinghy mast tubes?
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Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish" |
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423zero
Really should get out more Joined: 08 Jan 15 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 3406 |
Post Options Quote Reply Posted: 05 Jan 19 at 6:07pm | |
Boat builders and Caravan industry are probably highest users of UK manufactured parts, so not really a problem at the moment, however you hear offshore manufacturing so often it does pay to mention damage caused.
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iGRF
Really should get out more Joined: 07 Mar 11 Location: Hythe Online Status: Offline Posts: 6496 |
Post Options Quote Reply Posted: 05 Jan 19 at 7:31pm | |
Best quote I could find so far for a 6mtr 60mm Diameter carbon tube built here in the UK is £325... gives an idea of the margins involved.
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Sam.Spoons
Really should get out more Joined: 07 Mar 12 Location: Manchester UK Online Status: Offline Posts: 3398 |
Post Options Quote Reply Posted: 05 Jan 19 at 9:16pm | |
So £2k for a finished mast is reasonable? or what?
Sounds to me like I could fit my own out for around the same as the ally equivalent but, TBH, I can't seem to find a cost for an un-fitted ally mast (but, obviously, sailing an SMOD, I'm unable to do that). I suspect the tubes used for carbon dinghy masts are not a simple tube but incorporate strengthening and stiffening in different areas which are probably class specific and building one from a generic tube would not be a great success....... Edited by Sam.Spoons - 05 Jan 19 at 9:30pm |
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Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish" |
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iGRF
Really should get out more Joined: 07 Mar 11 Location: Hythe Online Status: Offline Posts: 6496 |
Post Options Quote Reply Posted: 05 Jan 19 at 11:42pm | |
The idea of in built strengthening and stiffening is an alloy necessity, because when it bends it stays bent.
All you have to do with a carbon tube is match the bend curve. Once you have the curve all the sail designer has to do is to decide what he wants to do with it. FFS you lot used to use wooden masts, so the idea that there is something 'sophisticated' going on is the usual black art BS that has been used down the years to confound and confuse. As I see it the biggest issue is the bloody track ballsing up the curve and or the fittings, spreaders etc, personally I'd do away with them no one really know what to do with spreaders, you don't see average sailors messing with them when the wind changes and frankly they should be capable of being adjusted on the fly, when we're in a world where half the classes won't even allow the mast rake to be adjusted on the fly. It's a BS world we are in and there is a very old saying that was as true back then as it is today 'Bullsh*t Baffles Brains' and that could be the mission statement of just about every rig supplier and developer. |
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Cirrus
Really should get out more Joined: 29 Oct 15 Location: UK Online Status: Offline Posts: 590 |
Post Options Quote Reply Posted: 05 Jan 19 at 11:59pm | |
GRFi So why not just get into a class that ALREADY uses carbon sticks !! Nothing too complex about it surely ? It is you choosing to buy into a class that does not use them after all is said and done ...that is the issue here. Plenty of variety out there already ... just sail something closer to what you (really) want. 'They' will not change didly squat just because you, as a single individual, want something or other ... unless you buy 50 or a 100+ or 500+ of course when they might just look at the opportunity. It is simply a commercial decision and not a lot to do with 'Bullsh*t Baffles Brains' at all. If is looked likely to make proper money for a real bulder/supplier ... you would have it already !! Surely it is simply delusion to think anything much else ? ......
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