New Posts New Posts RSS Feed: So.. Laserati, shall we talk C5?
  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Register Register  Login Login

So.. Laserati, shall we talk C5?

 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <1 910111213 14>
Author
davidyacht View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more


Joined: 29 Mar 05
Online Status: Online
Posts: 1206
Post Options Post Options   Quote davidyacht Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Jan 19 at 11:22am
Chris 249 ... I should not have been so lazy as to miss out the post that I was trying to address ...

Originally posted by JimC

Originally posted by Do Different

selling what is a very basic product at perceived large markups over cost of manufacture. 

Trouble is it's well demonstrated that if you have competing suppliers within a class then what you end up with is a premium product at a very premium price. So the actual headline costs escalate. What keeps prices down is competition between classes. If class A gets viciously expensive then people don't buy a cheap and slow class A, they buy class B.

In my particular class competition seems to be at a level that keeps the sailmakers pencils sharp, particularly when winter discounts are on offer.  The sails are easy to control and last in there competitive shape.  They come with a host of benefits which may not be so good for you.

Some of my good friends compete on the Laser Masters level, and like the concept of turning up with a sail.  I would suggest that this is operating at a much higher price point than your typical Sunday warrior Laser sailor with a 10+ year old boat.  I would suggest that these are the guys who are tempted into non-legal replica Laser sails due to the LP pricing model, which is a shame.

Anyway, it is a free World and we all make our own choices.
 

Happily living in the past
Back to Top
iGRF View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more
Avatar

Joined: 07 Mar 11
Location: Hythe
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 6300
Post Options Post Options   Quote iGRF Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Jan 19 at 4:18pm
Originally posted by 423zero

Classes and builders will only push the envelope so much, they have to think of their futures.
Get a group together at your club, say 6 and negotiate for sails etc.


So why is it I wonder that down the years, some of the obvious classes haven't gotten together to put pressure on suppliers?

Classic example right now we are being ripped apart with carbon mast pricing, there are two classes, three if you count the Solution that could badly do with carbon up top, if the classes got together the spec isn't too dissimilar Solo, Streaker, for example both need carbon they have the numbers, they set the price, no more than 800 quid for the mast which is the absolute top money we should be paying in a vertical market like this. Put it out to tender. You'd have to go offshore, as well, the locals are pretty much a cartel so couldn't be trusted not to collude and break this bloody stranglehold they have.

Edited by iGRF - 05 Jan 19 at 4:19pm
Back to Top
423zero View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more


Joined: 08 Jan 15
Location: United Kingdom
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2785
Post Options Post Options   Quote 423zero Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Jan 19 at 4:55pm
I meant a purchasing group of individuals at a club, can see where you are coming from though.
I have never liked offshore manufacturing, very destructive to home industry, how can they compete against countries where labour is probably 90% lower, whole thing becomes a vicious circle.
Back to Top
Cirrus View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more


Joined: 29 Oct 15
Location: UK
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 576
Post Options Post Options   Quote Cirrus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Jan 19 at 5:20pm
I have never liked offshore manufacturing, very destructive to home industry, how can they compete against countries where labour is probably 90% lower...

All things being equal I'd like more UK/local choice as well.  However many tubes today also come from NZ and Oz either as tubes or as completed masts ....  these countries are not exactly known for their low(er) labour rates !   If better quality/price points for mostly dinghy tubes was available these suppliers would not remain really competitive for long.   Part of the underlying problem is the GBP heading south and with indecent haste in a very uncertain market where local (boat) builders simply will not explore supplier alternatives until they have a much more steady state/ certain economic environment to make reasoned changes.     Don't blame the dinghy builders - they like other (UK) manufacturers did not conspire to destabalise the economy and hope to survive whatever comes along in the next few years !!  Don't expect any to switch from alloy to carbon anytime soon .... unless there is overwhelming demand for change from existing and prospective new owners and that is not likely for the same reasons at the moment...  Wish on.

If anyone sees a possibility of establising a new  (cheap but profitable)  carbon mast maker in the UK it would still not be the right time now.... I'd 'wait and see' for as long as it takes ....and so would you if you have any sense...... Nobody wants to be one of those 'Fools and their money' etc.
Back to Top
Sam.Spoons View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more


Joined: 07 Mar 12
Location: Manchester UK
Online Status: Online
Posts: 3129
Post Options Post Options   Quote Sam.Spoons Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Jan 19 at 5:39pm
When I was windsurfing one of the World's biggest manufacturers of carbon tubing for masts was Excel in Finland. By all accounts their tubes were of the highest quality. They are still in business, are they not a viable supplier of dinghy mast tubes?
Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"
Back to Top
423zero View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more


Joined: 08 Jan 15
Location: United Kingdom
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2785
Post Options Post Options   Quote 423zero Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Jan 19 at 6:07pm
Boat builders and Caravan industry are probably highest users of UK manufactured parts, so not really a problem at the moment, however you hear offshore manufacturing so often it does pay to mention damage caused.
Back to Top
iGRF View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more
Avatar

Joined: 07 Mar 11
Location: Hythe
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 6300
Post Options Post Options   Quote iGRF Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Jan 19 at 7:31pm
Best quote I could find so far for a 6mtr 60mm Diameter carbon tube built here in the UK is 325... gives an idea of the margins involved.
Back to Top
Sam.Spoons View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more


Joined: 07 Mar 12
Location: Manchester UK
Online Status: Online
Posts: 3129
Post Options Post Options   Quote Sam.Spoons Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Jan 19 at 9:16pm
So 2k for a finished mast is reasonable? or what?

Sounds to me like I could fit my own out for around the same as the ally equivalent but, TBH, I can't seem to find a cost for an un-fitted ally mast (but, obviously, sailing an SMOD, I'm unable to do that). 

I suspect the tubes used for carbon dinghy masts are not a simple tube but incorporate strengthening and stiffening in different areas which are probably class specific and building one from a generic tube would not be a great success.......




Edited by Sam.Spoons - 05 Jan 19 at 9:30pm
Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"
Back to Top
iGRF View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more
Avatar

Joined: 07 Mar 11
Location: Hythe
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 6300
Post Options Post Options   Quote iGRF Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Jan 19 at 11:42pm
The idea of in built strengthening and stiffening is an alloy necessity, because when it bends it stays bent.

All you have to do with a carbon tube is match the bend curve.

Once you have the curve all the sail designer has to do is to decide what he wants to do with it.

FFS you lot used to use wooden masts, so the idea that there is something 'sophisticated' going on is the usual black art BS that has been used down the years to confound and confuse. As I see it the biggest issue is the bloody track ballsing up the curve and or the fittings, spreaders etc, personally I'd do away with them no one really know what to do with spreaders, you don't see average sailors messing with them when the wind changes and frankly they should be capable of being adjusted on the fly, when we're in a world where half the classes won't even allow the mast rake to be adjusted on the fly. It's a BS world we are in and there is a very old saying that was as true back then as it is today 'Bullsh*t Baffles Brains' and that could be the mission statement of just about every rig supplier and developer.
Back to Top
Cirrus View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more


Joined: 29 Oct 15
Location: UK
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 576
Post Options Post Options   Quote Cirrus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Jan 19 at 11:59pm
GRFi

So why not just get into a class that ALREADY uses carbon sticks !! Nothing too complex about it surely  ? It is you choosing to buy into a class that does not use them after all is said and done ...that is the issue here.  Plenty of variety out there already ... just sail something closer to what you (really) want.  'They' will not change didly squat just because you, as a single individual, want something or other ... unless you buy 50 or a 100+  or 500+ of course when they might just look at the opportunity.    It is simply a commercial decision and not a lot to do with 'Bullsh*t Baffles Brains' at all.  If is looked likely to make proper money for a real bulder/supplier  ... you would have it already !!

Surely it is simply delusion to think anything much else  ? ......
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <1 910111213 14>

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Bulletin Board Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 9.665y
Copyright ©2001-2010 Web Wiz
Change your personal settings, or read our privacy policy