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Keep Clear boat question |
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JimC
Really should get out more Joined: 17 May 04 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 6649 |
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Topic: Keep Clear boat question Posted: 06 Sep 18 at 6:33pm |
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I imagine because it makes other things more complicated. For example if you have two boats on a beat and the windward one is overlapping the leeward one by just a few inches the leeward boat is upwind of the windward one. Rule writing is an art of compromise: if you try to specify every bizarre situation that might occur then the rules end up unmanagably complicated. |
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Sam.Spoons
Really should get out more Joined: 07 Mar 12 Location: Manchester UK Online Status: Offline Posts: 3398 |
Post Options Quote Reply Posted: 06 Sep 18 at 7:48pm | ||||
Historically they have tried to do just that until the controversial revision which introduced the concept of room to keep clear (CBA looking up the date). Simplification, in this context, is very much relative.....
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Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish" |
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Rupert
Really should get out more Joined: 11 Aug 04 Location: Whitefriars sc Online Status: Offline Posts: 8956 |
Post Options Quote Reply Posted: 06 Sep 18 at 8:24pm | ||||
My issue with all this is that, as the boat going upwind, how do you tell, especially is shifty conditions, whether the running boat is sailing by the lee? And if the wind shifts at a vital moment, the running boat suddenly finds they are no longer sailing by the lee?
Seems that not only is neither boat in the right, but the upwind boat has no chance of knowing when or whether they are the leeward boat, and the running boat can become windward boat through no action of their own at any time. |
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Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686
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Sam.Spoons
Really should get out more Joined: 07 Mar 12 Location: Manchester UK Online Status: Offline Posts: 3398 |
Post Options Quote Reply Posted: 06 Sep 18 at 8:36pm | ||||
By the lee is a red herring, according to the RRS, windward/leeward depends only on the attitude/position of the respective boats. The only thing that matters is that the running boat, Blue, is (in this scenario) to the right of dead ahead of the boat sailing upwind, Yellow, and thus is windward boat until it falls to the left of dead ahead (which involves crossing the path of Yellow).
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Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish" |
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JimC
Really should get out more Joined: 17 May 04 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 6649 |
Post Options Quote Reply Posted: 06 Sep 18 at 9:20pm | ||||
No, its the other way round... If the definition was which side the wind was coming from instead of which side the sail was on, then you'd have to know whether the boat was running by the lee or not. As it is you only have to look at the sail. Its just that the boats can only get in this position of boats on the same tack on a bow to bow collision course if one is sailing by the lee - or of course if you're on a Norfolk river and the wind is going round in circles... |
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Brass
Really should get out more Joined: 24 Mar 08 Location: Australia Online Status: Offline Posts: 1146 |
Post Options Quote Reply Posted: 07 Sep 18 at 12:06am | ||||
For those bothered about the effectiveness of the rules in this scenario, this explanation is spot on. It is a situation that the original rules drafters just never envisaged.
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Brass
Really should get out more Joined: 24 Mar 08 Location: Australia Online Status: Offline Posts: 1146 |
Post Options Quote Reply Posted: 07 Sep 18 at 12:14am | ||||
Sam, the difficulty with this analysis is that the rules don't use the term 'to windward': they define leeward side and windward side and and go on to define leeward boat and windward boat by the attribute 'being on the leeward side' @1, see the analysis above in response to Mozzy: being upwind does not make B a windward boat according to the definition.
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Rupert
Really should get out more Joined: 11 Aug 04 Location: Whitefriars sc Online Status: Offline Posts: 8956 |
Post Options Quote Reply Posted: 07 Sep 18 at 6:56am | ||||
So, if this went to protest, how many club protest committees would look at it and bin the upwind boat?
The point I was failing to make earlier wasn't to do with sailing by the lee, but of the difficulty boats closing on each other would have in calculating that the boat upwind wasn't the boat to windward, so making this a virtually impossible situation to spot, especially in a mixed fleet. I'm sure Laser sailors are getting used to such situations?? And that the upwind boat can become windward boat with a very small change of wind direction. Though this one makes my head hurt. |
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Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686
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andymck
Far too distracted from work Joined: 15 Dec 06 Location: Stamford Online Status: Offline Posts: 397 |
Post Options Quote Reply Posted: 07 Sep 18 at 8:11am | ||||
For both scenarios
Why is this not rule 15?
The blue boat acquires a technical right of way between position 1 and 2. With the closing speed, this is likely to very close to the time that one of them would need to start keeping clear. We would also probably resort back to the last point of certainty in a protest meeting? This is perfectly plausible in a 2 sail boat, I regularly used to sail by the lee in my N12. Very quick. Andy
Edited by andymck - 07 Sep 18 at 8:15am |
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Andy Mck
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Post Options Quote Reply Posted: 07 Sep 18 at 8:47am | ||||
This is where I'm still a bit lost. Surely from red's point of view, they look at Blue and think, I am on their leeward side, therefore I am a leeward boat. Therefore Blue is windward boat and keep clear under rule 11. Therefore I am right of way. I don't see what in the definition leads red to interpret it the other way around. If anything the definition invites you to consider yourself as the 'one' leeward boat first, rather that the 'other', which later de-facto becomes windward.
I still don't feel that. The preamble to section a states "A boat has right of way over another boat when the other boat is required to keep clear of her.". It certainly feels pretty circular. Are you saying that it's okay for a boat to be both keep clear and right of way and she is only right of way because some else is keeping clear of her? How does the definition of the keep clear then work? You must allow a right of way boat to sail her course, so the first person who alters their course to avoid the other is no longer sailing their course. Does that mean the other has broken the rule to keep clear?
Firstly I'm unsure what in the rule or definition would lead each boat to conclude they were windward boat over leeward boat. But secondly, it does seem you are saying both are keep clear boats in their own heads, but that also makes each other right of way boats. If it doesn't make the other boat also a right of way boat, then they don't need to keep clear, because the definition of keep clear only obliges you to keep clear of a right of way boat. Perhaps both can act as if they are keep clear boat, considering the other to be right of way boat. But it is important to know you are right of way boat too, as that places some restrictions on how you can manoeuvre.
When we applied the definitions before, we concluded if there is not one leeward boat, then there can't be a windward boat. Therefore there are no windward boats. "When two boats on the same tack overlap, the one on the leeward side of the other is the leeward boat. The other is the windward boat." However, in this case we have more than one leeward boat. Which doesn't seem to be a situation catered for in the definition. The definition could state "a boat on the leeward side of another is the leeward boat". That would allow both boat to be leeward boat. But the definition clearly states one is the leeward boat and the other is windward. That certainly seem to clearly say a situation can't exist where there are two boats and both are leeward. Edited by mozzy - 07 Sep 18 at 8:52am |
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