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Brass View Drop Down
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Posts: 1146 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Keep Clear boat question
    Posted: 06 Sep 18 at 11:17am
Y and B are overlapped on the same tack.

Section A Right of Way rules 10 On Opposite Tacks, 12, On the Same Tack Not Overlapped, and 13 While Tacking do not apply.  The only Right of Way rule which may be applicable is rule 11 On the Same Tack Overlapped.

Next Question:  What sort of boat does rule 11 impose an obligation on?

 .
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davidyacht View Drop Down
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Posts: 1345 		Post Options Post Options   Quote davidyacht Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Sep 18 at 11:23am
"When boats are on the same tack and not overlapped, a windward boat shall keep clear of a leeward boat."  so a windward boat
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Posts: 611 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Noah Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Sep 18 at 11:46am
Originally posted by davidyacht

"When boats are on the same tack and not overlapped, a windward boat shall keep clear of a leeward boat."  so a windward boat

Not quite David. Right answer, but the reasoning is off.  Rule 11  requires the windward boat to keep clear if two boats are overlapped. 
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Posts: 1146 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Sep 18 at 11:49am
Bearing in mind that we agreed that the leeward side of Y and B was their port side, and the Definition Leeward and Windward.

Next Questions:

Is there any boat to leeward of Y?  Is Y a windward boat?

Is there any boat to leeward of B?  Is B a windward boat?

Does rule 11 impose an obligation on Y?

Does rule 11 impose an obligation on B?


Edited by Brass - 06 Sep 18 at 11:50am
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Sep 18 at 11:56am
Originally posted by Brass

Next Question:  What sort of boat does rule 11 impose an obligation on?
It puts a obligation on the windward boat to keep clear. 

But this is where the definitions become circular. Because from each boats own perspective, the other boat is to windward. Making the other boat the keep clear boat under rule 11 and them the right of way boat as described in the preamble to Section A. 

But both are windward boats from each others viewpoints. 

The obligation imposed on a windward boat is to keep clear.  But the definition of keep clear only requires they to allow a right-of-way boat to sail their course with no need to take action. If there is no right of way boat, then there is no obligation? 

I don't see a way that you don't label both boat as right of way and keep clear simultaneously.  
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Sep 18 at 12:02pm
Originally posted by Brass

 
Next Questions:

Is there any boat to leeward of Y?  Is Y a windward boat?

Is there any boat to leeward of B?  Is B a windward boat?

Does rule 11 impose an obligation on Y?

Does rule 11 impose an obligation on B?
From the perspective of Y, no boats are to leeward. Y is not windward boat.
From the perspective of B, no boats are to leeward, B is not a windward boat. 

From the perspective of Y, rule 11 places no obligation on Y.
From the perspective of B, rule 11 places no obligation on B.

From the perspective of Y, B is to windward and therefore a windward boat. From the perspective of Y rule 11 imposes and obligation on B to keep clear of Y and makes Y right of way. 

From the perspective of B, Y is to windward and therefore a windward boat. From the perspective of B rule 11 imposes and obligation on Y to keep clear of B and makes B right of way. 
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JimC View Drop Down
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Posts: 6649 		Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Sep 18 at 12:05pm
Its a bit more subtle than that. Go back to the definition again. Are there any leeward boats?
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Noah View Drop Down
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Posts: 611 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Noah Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Sep 18 at 12:09pm
If it is agreed that the port side of both boats is the Leeward side, then there are no boats to leeward of either Y or B.

Is there any boat to leeward of Y?  No. Is Y a windward boat? From B, yes.

Is there any boat to leeward of B? No.  Is B a windward boat? From Y, yes.

Does rule 11 impose an obligation on Y? No, because there is no leeward boat.

Does rule 11 impose an obligation on B? No, because there is no leeward boat.


Edited by Noah - 06 Sep 18 at 12:16pm
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Brass View Drop Down
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Posts: 1146 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Sep 18 at 12:13pm
Originally posted by mozzy

From the perspective of Y, no boats are to leeward. Y is not windward boat.
From the perspective of B, no boats are to leeward, B is not a windward boat. 

From the perspective of Y, rule 11 places no obligation on Y.
From the perspective of B, rule 11 places no obligation on B.

Yay!

Originally posted by mozzy

From the perspective of Y, B is to windward and therefore a windward boat.

That's not what the Definition:  Leeward and Windward last two sentences say.

For there to be a windward boat, there first has to be a leeward boat and leeward boat is a defined term.  There is no leeward boat, therefore there can be no windward boat.

Upwind boat is not the same as the defined term windward boat.

From the perspective of Y rule 11 imposes and obligation on B to keep clear of Y and makes Y right of way.

 Nup.  No windward boat, no obligation under rule 11, no other Section A rule applies, no boat is right of way boat.

From the perspective of B, Y is to windward and therefore a windward boat. From the perspective of B rule 11 imposes and obligation on Y to keep clear of B and makes B right of way. 
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Sep 18 at 12:20pm
Originally posted by JimC

Its a bit more subtle than that. Go back to the definition again. Are there any leeward boats?
"When two boats on the same tack overlap, the one on the leeward side of the other is the leeward boat. The other is the windward boat."

Neither are on the leeward side of the other, therefore both are windward? Even though both boats only have boat on their windward sides? 

So this makes them both windward boats in terms of rule 11? And both keep clear boats. 

...but if you are a keep clear boat, then that makes the other boat de-facto right of way boat (preamble to section A). If it doesn't make the other right of way boat, then there is not right of way boat which you need to allow to sail it's course.   
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