New Posts New Posts RSS Feed: A new class of dinghy?
  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Register Register  Login Login

A new class of dinghy?

 Post Reply Post Reply Page  123 54>
Author
davidyacht View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more


Joined: 29 Mar 05
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1065
Post Options Post Options   Quote davidyacht Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: A new class of dinghy?
    Posted: 29 Aug 18 at 2:36pm
If somebody were to promote a new dinghy into the market ... what should it be?
Happily living in the past
Back to Top
iGRF View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more
Avatar

Joined: 07 Mar 11
Location: Hythe
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 5941
Post Options Post Options   Quote iGRF Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Aug 18 at 4:13pm
Something in between the Contender and the Farr 3.7.

Or maybe they should just put a wire on a Phantom.
Back to Top
Cirrus View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more


Joined: 29 Oct 15
Location: UK
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 527
Post Options Post Options   Quote Cirrus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Aug 18 at 4:21pm
Or maybe they should just put a wire on a Phantom.

Or a suitably heavy crew perhaps ?  ... just a thought. Wink
Back to Top
davidyacht View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more


Joined: 29 Mar 05
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1065
Post Options Post Options   Quote davidyacht Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Aug 18 at 4:35pm
My pitch would be to fill the gap that used to be occupied by Fireflys/N12s/Enterprises, with a white sail boat (with dangly pole) that takes advantage of modern materials; carbon mast, is Aeroesque in weight.  Has leg room and can be sat in comfortably.  Is technical but does not look scary to wives, girlfriends and children!

The 200 saw this market, but added the assy, which has in fact served it well.

Everything keeps pointing to the Icon ...


Happily living in the past
Back to Top
Rupert View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more


Joined: 11 Aug 04
Location: Whitefriars sc
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 8647
Post Options Post Options   Quote Rupert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Aug 18 at 4:40pm
New boat, not a 50 year old boat like a rehashed Phantom.

Trouble is, the old designers got the balance between light wind speed and blasting speed right, and the only direction left for new boats in the 90s was to compromise the light wind end to increase speed in a breeze. The holy grail is increasing speed right across the wind range, which the Aero has tried to do with very light weight, whilst keeping the hull form and rig quite conventional.

Logical step is to do the same for a double hander, isn't it? Or does the shrinking market mean that even a perfect boat is doomed to failure?
Firefly 2324, Lightning 130, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446
Back to Top
Turkey Pie View Drop Down
Newbie
Newbie


Joined: 18 Nov 15
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 35
Post Options Post Options   Quote Turkey  Pie Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Aug 18 at 5:33pm
I think there could be a place for another twin trap boat, non skiff type.

For example, the 800 is a great boat but is possible overly wide, resulting in a large sail area but still relatively easy to sail to a moderate level but can't compete on handicap when not powered up. 

I like the idea of something no wider than 5ft with a big rig, an Alto on steroids if you like. Possibly not even completely self draining. I prefer helming so at 14 stone my choices are limited with a lighter crew. Would not go back to hiking as that would be archaic - like driving a manual car! 
Back to Top
iGRF View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more
Avatar

Joined: 07 Mar 11
Location: Hythe
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 5941
Post Options Post Options   Quote iGRF Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Aug 18 at 6:50pm
Originally posted by Rupert

? Or does the PYAG mean that even a perfect boat is doomed to failure?

FTFY

Edited by iGRF - 29 Aug 18 at 6:50pm
Back to Top
Guests View Drop Down
Guest Group
Guest Group
Post Options Post Options   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Aug 18 at 6:50pm
Originally posted by davidyacht

My pitch would be to fill the gap that used to be occupied by Fireflys/N12s/Enterprises, with a white sail boat (with dangly pole) that takes advantage of modern materials; carbon mast, is Aeroesque in weight. 
The 12 is light and one of the most modern boats in terms of design surely? Unless you go restricted on foils and wing sails? Not sure that would be a boat for everyone like the Ent, firefly or N12 currently are (or 200).

The problem is, modern materials enable us to go lighter and faster. But, lighter and faster are not good properties for a peoples boat to be sailed at a range of venues. As a result it's very hard to improve over older designs. 

And if you make stronger boat, it just lasts longer, and you get no market turnover... it's a tricky problem to solve!

The only boats to really make it as new classes off a USP (asymmetric), and this style of racing has it's niche, which is probably not on the restricted water many clubs use. 

If a big step in dinghies design is to be made, it will be in the production cost through clever mass production and transport. Basically, you'll need to make a boat for far, far less, that can be used a general purpose family holiday boat and racer. 

Originally posted by Turkey Pie

I think there could be a place for another twin trap boat, non skiff type.

For example, the 800 is a great boat but is possible overly wide, resulting in a large sail area but still relatively easy to sail to a moderate level but can't compete on handicap when not powered up.
In the light, it's the hull shape, not sail area that holds it back. If I were to add sail area, it would be masthead kite, as it's slow downwind compared to the 49er/I14 (actually not slow, but has much wider gybing angles). But actually, it's very well proportioned for the type of boats it's trying to be. 


Back to Top
Turkey Pie View Drop Down
Newbie
Newbie


Joined: 18 Nov 15
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 35
Post Options Post Options   Quote Turkey  Pie Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Aug 18 at 7:30pm
That's not the point I'm trying to make. If you put a mast head kite on the 800 i think it would mostly increase its overall relative performance in a breeze resulting in handicap reduction and it being even more difficult to make it work in the light.

I have raced against a good 14 with T foil and was only marginally slower downwind but was completely blitzed by it upwind and on reaches in a force 4. Similar observations with 49ers.

 I know the boat i am looking for would be niche and therefore not viable. My skill set can deal with a boat more difficult to sail than a 800 in a breeze because its narrower but similar sail area. This would result in a slower boat which would work better in the light as handicapped to suit.
Back to Top
Gfinch View Drop Down
Groupie
Groupie
Avatar

Joined: 09 Nov 09
Location: United Kingdom
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 49
Post Options Post Options   Quote Gfinch Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Aug 18 at 7:32pm
Originally posted by mozzy


The problem is, modern materials enable us to go lighter and faster. But, lighter and faster are not good properties for a peoples boat to be sailed at a range of venues. As a result it's very hard to improve over older designs. 


So at Salcombe GIN SYC Regatta an almost 20 year old N12 based on a 1987 design (Final Chapter) was giving the DCB (sailed by the current National Champions) a run for its money. It did similar at the RHYC Open. Ok so it has a T Foil rudder but still could win at the Nationals. That is good value for money.....no need to form a new dinghy class!

3513, 3551 - National 12
136069 - Laser
32541 - Mirror
4501 - Laser 4000
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  123 54>

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Bulletin Board Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 9.665y
Copyright ©2001-2010 Web Wiz
Change your personal settings, or read our privacy policy