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A new class of dinghy?

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KazRob View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote KazRob Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Oct 18 at 3:17pm
Perhaps the big change will come with new ways of thinking about what is possible in structures. We've seen new developments in industrial 3D printing that are allowing complex internal structures to be made that just were unimaginable before. The pic below is typical of new ideas being thought up for items that need large surface areas but low pressure drops such as a reactors/heat exchangers. It's only a small step from these to be able to imagine printing a Nomex like honeycomb in materials. It will likely never be cheap in our lifetimes but who knows what advances are going to be made

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Post Options Post Options   Quote RS400atC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Oct 18 at 3:28pm
Originally posted by JimC

Its not very hard to conceive a machine that uses mechanical means to lay up a network of fibres and 3d printing like deposition techniques to put down a matrix. Whether such a thing is practical and offers any advantages over say resin infusion is another matter. But historically advanced sailboat tech has been a spin off from aerospace at least since WW2, so that's going to be the place to go to look for new materials and techniques. If there's nothing on the horizon now there will be sooner or later.

Sounds like the kind of machine which lays the fibres for a carbon mast or a load-map sail.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote H2 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Oct 18 at 3:39pm
KazRob - disagree about "in our life times". I am 45 so have at least 30 years more sailing in front of me. Wind the world back 30 years.....quite a bit has changed so I am fairly sure that it will be possible in the foreseeable future.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote RS400atC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Oct 18 at 3:45pm
Originally posted by iGRF

They are 3d printing carbon cycle frames, I really don't see why they cannot produce something as simple and so much lower tech as a dinghy hull. You really need to forget what you think you know and open your mind, you'd be really surprised by what's out there these days.

This coming from a discussion where some think the clunkiest, oldest, blackest technology rotomoulding is acceptable for a performance racing dinghy.


You can do that sort of thing, the cost is not low.
The 49er was originally conceived to be made from some thermo-forming process.
In my view cheap plastic moulding might one day enable some sort of boat in the 3-figure price bracket. Maybe people will move from paddling plastic canoes and SUPs to some re-invented bargain windsurfer?
You can sell lots of £500 toys or a relative few £9000 racing dinghies. They are completely different concepts. Just because I see myself more towards the £9k dinghies (albeit in the 2nd user market), does not mean the sub-£1k market could not exist.
If you can sell 10,000 of anything that's basically a lot of used milk bottles melted down, the unit cost can be surprisingy low.

Put 'sail' and 'canoe' into alibaba.com's search box if you dare.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote KazRob Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Oct 18 at 3:45pm
H2 - true - I probably over egged it a bit there tbh. However some of this stuff is still cutting edge even for companies with deep research pockets and the trickle down to consumer goods will take quite a while in some areas. It all depends on outlay 'v' return I guess and it took quite a while to go from the injection moulded Topper (late 70s?) to the current generation of rotomoulded boats
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Post Options Post Options   Quote H2 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Oct 18 at 3:56pm
KazRob oh I am sure that this will not come as a result of the sailing community. In the countries I work in (Africa and Asia) no one had a landline phone 10 years ago. Along came mobiles and now everyone has at least one phone but banks piggybacked on that to bring financial services to people that would never be served by brick and mortar branches.

Someone will work out how to print large objects cheaply not at home but from a small lock up type business and when that happens its a small leapfrog for sailing to change how boats are designed, printed, fitted out and sold in my view. Sailing will not start this but we can ride the wave.

Actually - take the H2. Its designed by Keith Callaghan, built by White Formula and fitted out by Simon Hipkin, rig designed by Jim Hunt at HD Sails. All I am talking about is having a "White Formula" in most small towns over the country that can print you a boat in a day in whatever colour you want at a much lower price than White charge. Just buy your CAD file from the boat designer on-line, send it to the builder today and pick it up on Saturday ready for fit out at home.


Edited by H2 - 02 Oct 18 at 4:02pm
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Oatsandbeans Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Oct 18 at 4:26pm
Yes this is an ATL automatic tape layer. It applies, normally prepreg tapes, to moulds. The aerospace ones are horiffically expnesive ( see M Torres website), even the low cost ones ( NTPT) are not cheap, and they are all slow and thus expensive. Not really the way to go for low cost marine laminates.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote davidyacht Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Oct 18 at 6:03pm
I do wonder if we are barking up the wrong tree ... our concern is that whilst rotomoulded polyethylene is robust and impact resistant, it is extremely heavy and does not have good panel stiffness.  3D printing of hi strength fibres is not going to make a hide difference in panel stiffness unless it is part of a sandwich structure, or unless framing can be incorporated to reduce the panel size.  In truth stiff racing dinghies can be built using pretty basic sandwich laminate, with very low cloth weights.  Using carbon or fancy reinforcements will have a very marginal effect on weight or stiffness but probably result in a considerable price hike.

So unless there is a breakthrough in materials, the best way of achieving low cost racing dinghies, will be by designing to minimise or streamline the production process, to create a product where performance is not compromised.  This was what the Laser did in the early 70ís, all other boats were plywood or GRP versions of plywood boats at that time.

The problem with Laser is that they have increased the retail price to a point that they have lost the benefits of volume production.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Sam.Spoons Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Oct 18 at 6:06pm
Originally posted by davidyacht

The problem with Laser is that they have increased the retail price to a point that they we have lost the benefits of their volume production.

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Post Options Post Options   Quote davidyacht Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Oct 18 at 6:09pm
Originally posted by Sam.Spoons

Originally posted by davidyacht

The problem with Laser is that they have increased the retail price to a point that they we have lost the benefits of their volume production.

FTFY
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