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Windward mark situation

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Henmch View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Henmch Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Windward mark situation
    Posted: 21 Jun 18 at 4:01pm
two dinghies approaching windward Mark on port tack in a force 2/3. Mark to be left to port. The boats are parallel to each other and the overlap existed before they entered the zone. Boat A is nearest the Mark about half a boat length away. Boat B is furthest from the Mark right on the edge of the zone. Boat B tacks onto starboard when they can lay the Mark and calls starboard on A. As soon as boat B is on their close hauled course Boat A also tacks to starboard. They can just make the Mark. Boat B has to go above close hauled course to avoid boat A although A was already on their close hauled course. Any thoughts on who is in the right. I'm wondering if as boat boats tacked within the zone there is any variation in the rule.


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JimC View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Jun 18 at 4:26pm
Well, the rule isn't that complicated... run through it.

18.2 Giving Mark-Room
(a) When boats are overlapped the outside boat shall give the
inside boat mark-room, unless rule 18.2(b) applies.
(b) If boats are overlapped when the first of them reaches the zone,
the outside boat at that moment shall thereafter give the inside
boat mark-room. If a boat is clear ahead when she reaches the
zone, the boat clear astern at that moment shall thereafter give
her mark-room.

18.2b doesn't apply then.


(c) When a boat is required to give mark-room by rule 18.2(b),
(1) she shall continue to do so even if later an overlap is
broken or a new overlap begins;
(2) if she becomes overlapped inside the boat entitled to
mark-room, she shall also give that boat room to sail her
proper course while they remain overlapped.

so c doesn't apply either

(d) Rules 18.2(b) and (c) cease to apply when the boat entitled to
mark-room has been given that mark-room, or if she passes
head to wind or leaves the zone.
(e) If there is reasonable doubt that a boat obtained or broke an
overlap in time, it shall be presumed that she did not.

and if b and c don't apply nor does d.
and e doesn't apply.

(f) If a boat obtained an inside overlap from clear astern or by
tacking to windward of the other boat and, from the time the
overlap began, the outside boat has been unable to give markroom,
she is not required to give it.

so f doesn't apply

18.3 Tacking in the Zone
If a boat in the zone of a mark to be left to port passes head to wind
from port to starboard tack and is then fetching the mark, she shall
not cause a boat that has been on starboard tack since entering the
zone to sail above close-hauled to avoid contact and she shall give
mark-room if that boat becomes overlapped inside her. When this
rule applies between boats, rule 18.2 does not apply between them.

and 18.3 does not apply because *both* boats tacked in the zone.

So we are left with plain 18.2 - outside gives inside room.
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Hengest View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Hengest Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Jun 18 at 11:44am
Why does 18.2 (b) not apply ?

(b) If boats are overlapped when the first of them reaches the zone, 
the outside boat at that moment shall thereafter give the inside 
boat mark-room.

The boats were overlapped. So surely the outside boat has to give room.

Which doesn't change the outcome, just a different part of the rule to end up in the same place


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Brass View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Jun 18 at 12:47pm
I'll break it down a little bit further.  See JimC's post above for the text of the rules.

Originally posted by Henmch

two dinghies approaching windward Mark on port tack in a force 2/3. Mark to be left to port. The boats are parallel to each other and the overlap existed before they entered the zone.
Initially, boats were overlapped on the same tack when the first of them reached the zone:  rule 18.2( b ) applied and B, the outside boat was required to give A, inside mark-room.
Originally posted by Henmch

Boat A is nearest the Mark about half a boat length away. Boat B is furthest from the Mark right on the edge of the zone.

Boat B tacks onto starboard when they can lay the Mark and calls starboard on A.
Rule 18, in its entirety, and including rule 18.2( b ), ceases to apply when B passes head to wind, because boats are then on opposite tacks and the proper course of one of them, at the mark is to tack (rule 18.1( a )).  While tacking, B is required to keep clear of A (rule 13)
Originally posted by Henmch

As soon as boat B is on their close hauled course
B becomes the right of way boat (rule 10), initially required to give A room to keep clear ( rule 15)
Originally posted by Henmch

Boat A also tacks to starboard.
A is still required to keep clear of B, now under rule 13.

From the instant A passes head to wind, both boats are on the same tack, they are no longer on opposite tacks and some part of rule 18 may apply (rule 18.1).

Rule 18.2 ( b ) can't apply because it got switched off when B tacked.

Rule 18.3 is a candidate:  A is certainly tacking in the zone, but B was not 'on starboard tack since entering the zone':  B came onto starboard tack after she had entered the zone:  rule 18.3 does not apply.

So the only rule left is good old rule 18.2( a ), and it will apply, if and only if the boats become overlapped.

When A reaches her close hauled course, she is (presumably) clear ahead of B, and the right of way boat (rule 12), required to give B room to keep clear (rule 15).
Originally posted by Henmch

They can just make the Mark. Boat B has to go above close hauled course to avoid boat A although A was already on their close hauled course.
While A is clear ahead, her obligation was initially to give B room to keep clear, which she did:  there was ample space for B to luff above close hauled and keep clear.

If, B, having luffed above A, then becomes overlapped outside A, B will still be required to keep clear of A, now under rule 11, and also required to give A mark-room.

If B had dived, and hooked A to leeward, she would have gained right of way and mark-room as leeward inside boat.
Originally posted by Henmch

 Any thoughts on who is in the right. I'm wondering if as boat boats tacked within the zone there is any variation in the rule.
So, yes, B, passing head to wind inside the zone, switched rule 18.3 off.

  


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Post Options Post Options   Quote deadrock Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Jun 18 at 3:39pm
Reference Brass's 'If B had dived, and hooked A to leeward, she would have gained right of way and mark-room as leeward inside boat.The OP has stated that A is only about half a boat-length from the mark when it tacks. That close to the mark, if B dives inside A to gain an overlap, 18(f) would surely apply. 18(f) is not dependent on the other sub-sections of Rule 18.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Jun 18 at 8:20am
Good point.

But A had better be doing all she can, in a seamanlike way.
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