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19.2(c) clarification
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Brass View Drop Down
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Posts: 1146 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: 19.2(c) clarification
    Posted: 24 May 18 at 4:59am
Assuming that it is seamanlike to sail the boat with foils raised.

What allowed you to go in there with an entitlement to room in the first place was the fact that there was room, that is the space needed, in the existing conditions, while manoeuvering in a seamanlike way.

Once there, the room you are entitled to is the space needed while manoeuvering in a seamanlike way.

If it was seamanlike to sail in there with your foils up, then it is seamanlike to keep your foils up while you are in there.
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Posts: 1345 		Post Options Post Options   Quote davidyacht Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 May 18 at 2:54pm
Also interesting is whether you can go into a shallow (shelving) gap with your rudder and centreboard raised, then put them down once you are occupying inside berth ... 

Whilst the points made may seem perdantic, these are real world problems.
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Posts: 94 		Post Options Post Options   Quote GML Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 May 18 at 1:18pm
I'm not aware of a case that clarifies how much space there needs to be between the outside boat and the continuing obstruction. What I think we can say is that the inside boat can't ask the outside boat to move further away from the obstruction in order for the inside boat to get through the gap - the inside boat is only allowed to go into the gap if it is big enough for her to pass through at the moment the overlap begins - see RYA case 2014/4. (Note however that the outside boat may subsequently be required to move out if the continuing obstruction projects further out - see RYA case 1968/11).

(Note that RYA cases are not definitive except in the UK).
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Brass View Drop Down
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Posts: 1146 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 May 18 at 12:15pm
Well, there is a case about sailing into space that is big enough:
Definitions, Mark-Room
Rule 18.2(b), Mark-Room: Giving Mark-Room
Rule 18.2(c)(2), Mark-Room: Giving Mark-Room
Rule 21(a), Exoneration
At a mark, when space is made available to a boat that is not entitled to it, she may, at her own risk, take advantage of the space.

And there's a case about what 'room' is

Definitions, Mark-Room
Definitions, Room
When a right-of-way boat is obligated to give mark-room to a boat overlapped inside her, there is no maximum or minimum amount of space that she must give. The amount of space that she must give depends significantly on the existing conditions including wind and sea conditions, the speed of the inside boat, the sails she has set and her design characteristics.


Edited by Brass - 23 May 18 at 10:10pm
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jeffers View Drop Down
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Posts: 3048 		Post Options Post Options   Quote jeffers Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 May 18 at 11:50am
The definition of room in the RRS is:

Room The space a boat needs in the existing conditions, including space to comply with her obligations under the rules of Part 2 and rule 31, while manoeuvring promptly in a seamanlike way.

I seem to remember there is also a case about sailing into space that is not suitable/big enough (non-navigable water).

It may be worth looking through the Casebook to find it (I dont have the time right now). I would argue that if the boats are that close to a continuing obstruction and someone goes between a boat and said obstruction rather than to the clear side then they have made their own problem.
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PeterG View Drop Down
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Posts: 818 		Post Options Post Options   Quote PeterG Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 May 18 at 11:21am
Definitely with all equipment in "normal position" - boom, goosewinged jib etc
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Posts: 3398 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Sam.Spoons Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 May 18 at 10:12am
I'd have said there would need to be room for the boat and all equipment in it's normal position which, on a dead run, means the boom at right angles and either a kite or goose winged jib.
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Posts: 41 		Post Options Post Options   Quote flaming Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 May 18 at 10:05am
Thanks guys, follow up question....

Would the room involved be just hull width, or does the boat in front need to have left enough room for the boom at 90 degrees to the hull as well, given that this is how everyone is sailing?
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Posts: 8956 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Rupert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 May 18 at 8:23am
Agree, this is common on rivers, and where the banks are soft, any boat trying this would end up in the reeds.
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Posts: 94 		Post Options Post Options   Quote GML Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 May 18 at 7:38am
You are correct, unless the boat behind is on starboard tack and the boat in front is on port tack at the moment the overlap is created; in that case the boat clear astern is not required to keep clear and so 19.2(c) does not apply.

See RYA cases 1968/11 and 2014/4 for more discussion of the entitlement to room at a continuing obstruction.
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