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Another question, spinnakers , alt/assym/sym

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iGRF View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote iGRF Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Feb 18 at 11:52am
Originally posted by JohnJack


Originally posted by iGRF

 OK then the risk is mast inversion, but really? Would it invert it's got shrouds up there and provided I didn't go for mast head kite I could get away with it couldn't I?

The inversion comes from the pressure of the kite transferring to the mast through the pole, not at the sheath 


Does it? That's interesting, yes I can see how that might happen even with a dangly pole, you would think the effect at the pole would be opposite, the kite pulling the pole away from the mast, so what you're saying is the pole acts in a pivoting moment putting negative pressure toward the mast and the top of the kite is pulling the mast forward.

So another reason to stay with an assym set up then.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote ChrisI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Feb 18 at 12:02pm
Originally posted by JimC



In the Cherubs we learned very very early that there were just about no conditions where a pole kite had any advantages.


There are Jim..... Wherever you have some sort of tidal gradient a pole kite can have advantages and in particular in lightish winds e.g rivers/estuaries, although I appreciate you prob did not sail your Cherub much on those....
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Post Options Post Options   Quote JohnJack Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Feb 18 at 12:14pm
Originally posted by iGRF

 

Does it? That's interesting, yes I can see how that might happen even with a dangly pole, you would think the effect at the pole would be opposite, the kite pulling the pole away from the mast, so what you're saying is the pole acts in a pivoting moment putting negative pressure toward the mast and the top of the kite is pulling the mast forward.

So another reason to stay with an assym set up then.

If you think about it, the kite isn't actually attached to the pole. It's attach to the guy which comes from (usually) around your shrouds with twiners on.
The pole forces the leading edge of the kite out in front of the boat. 

The effect lessons the more you square the kite

You wouldn't only be running square with the kite,, you would be using it on reaches too.

Other thing, unless you are in a displacement only boat, running ddw is dog slow (you only really do this when there is very little wind in which case the kite needs 100% attention and is an absolute pain to keep flying.Running DDW means those lovely aerofoil shaped sails you have are stalled out and you may as well dig a square topsail.

You would be much better running with a jib poled out (same goes for small lakes, lots of short legs, much easier to goose the jib rather than the faff of getting a kite up and down


Edited by JohnJack - 15 Feb 18 at 12:16pm
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Post Options Post Options   Quote mozzy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Feb 18 at 12:48pm
Originally posted by iGRF

The class rules state you can fit a kite, but you can't use it racing each other in class events, nothing said about using it to race Lasers & Contenders, who will without a shadow of doubt penalise it if it gets even close.
No they don't

Originally posted by iGRF


I don't actually give a rats arse about handicap results
Yet... you created a programme to calculate a fair one...

Originally posted by iGRF

my greatest joy is to win over the water, 1st back to the beach and that ain't going to happen with this little boat without some help and ingenuity. (Or an engine) ;-)
Fitting the engine may be best solution for you then. Its no more against the rules than fitting a spinnaker. Easy to run dead down wind and will work just as well upwind.  

If you want to turbo the blaze just for the hell of it so it will beat a contender, then bin the idea of adding sail area through a symmetrical kite, and add it to the single sail you already have. Just run a huge square top main. Much less modification required and far more manageable. Then to keep it under control upwind, fit wider racks, or trapeze wires.  Coupled with a T foil rudder you'd trounce the contenders. 


Edited by mozzy - 15 Feb 18 at 12:49pm
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Post Options Post Options   Quote turnturtle Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Feb 18 at 12:54pm
Originally posted by mozzy

If you want to turbo the blaze just for the hell of it so it will beat a contender, then bin the idea of adding sail area through a symmetrical kite, and add it to the single sail you already have. Just run a huge square top main. Much less modification required and far more manageable. Then to keep it under control upwind, fit wider racks, or trapeze wires.  Coupled with a T foil rudder you'd trounce the contenders. 

you could actually market it at fat people, creating an illusionary handicap based on a 100kg+ payload, then turn up to a light wind handicap race and completely bandit it with an average weight helmsman.  LOL


Edited by turnturtle - 15 Feb 18 at 12:54pm
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Post Options Post Options   Quote iGRF Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Feb 18 at 12:59pm
Originally posted by mozzy

Originally posted by iGRF

The class rules state you can fit a kite, but you can't use it racing each other in class events, nothing said about using it to race Lasers & Contenders, who will without a shadow of doubt penalise it if it gets even close.
No they don't
Originally posted by iGRF

I don't actually give a rats arse about handicap results
Yet... you created a programme to calculate a fair one...
Originally posted by iGRF

my greatest joy is to win over the water, 1st back to the beach and that ain't going to happen with this little boat without some help and ingenuity. (Or an engine) ;-)

Fitting the engine may be best solution for you then. Its no more against the rules than fitting a spinnaker. Easy to run dead down wind and will work just as well upwind.  
If you want to turbo the blaze just for the hell of it so it will beat a contender, then bin the idea of adding sail area through a symmetrical kite, and add it to the single sail you already have. Just run a huge square top main. Much less modification required and far more manageable. Then to keep it under control upwind, fit wider racks, or trapeze wires.  Coupled with a T foil rudder you'd trounce the contenders. 


No wonder I had so much trouble trying to educate you about tides, you don't pay attention we're not talking about a Blaze here, that's Sam Spoons quest, my next ride is a Farr 3.7 which is only 12 foot long and will absolutely die in our wave length especially if I'm punching tide in sub planing/wiring winds.

Do try to keep up at the back

Edited by iGRF - 15 Feb 18 at 1:00pm
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mozzy View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote mozzy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Feb 18 at 1:18pm
Oh okay. Apologies. 

But still "e. Only one sail may be used in any contest or series of races, except with the permission of the Race Committee controlling those races.

Ignore the idea of fitting a trapeze then as you will already have one. But you could add racks and increase the size of the your main if you just want to be faster than contenders over the water (regardless of rules). 

I think the largest gain would be the t-foil though, and it's class legal! 


Edited by mozzy - 15 Feb 18 at 1:21pm
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Sam.Spoons Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Feb 18 at 1:38pm
And I'm not planning to race with a kite or trap, far too complicated for my ability. In fact the reason I bought a Blaze to race was 'cos it didn't have a trap or kite.

Those additions will be purely to add a bit of extra interest when the wind isn't up and the race isn't 'till tomorrow.......
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Post Options Post Options   Quote iGRF Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Feb 18 at 2:14pm
Well the advice I'm getting and Andy Patterson at Bloodaxe foils has a lot of experience in this is the foil is probably not going to deliver that big an improvement, but he's looking at the idea.

A Contender is an absolute weapon once they get on their wire, it's got a big ass low aspect sail on a massive waterline length and there are a couple of guys at our place who know how to use them, I've only managed to beat them a couple of times in the EPS which also has quite a large rag and works well in light winds especially if I get the shifts right and they don't, but once the wind is up they go, hit the horizon and are all but a memory until they come round the second time to lap you.

But, they sail high and they don't get to sail hot angles off wind, so maybe a little light flyer will get the odd result.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote turnturtle Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Feb 18 at 2:21pm
Originally posted by iGRF

But, they sail high and they don't get to sail hot angles off wind, so maybe a little light flyer will get the odd result.

An RS Aero 5 can beat a Contender over the water in a F2.... what you need is an older Phantom, with a wire for F3-4+ 
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