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Another PY question..(pumping content)

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A2Z View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote A2Z Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Dec 17 at 1:21pm
Hiking is also physical. Can that be banned too? ;)
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iGRF View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote iGRF Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Dec 17 at 1:26pm
I would argue obviously that hiking is more physical than 'air rowing'. Back in the day I once 'Air rowed' my way around Hayling Island in a race, it took four hours. Not in my wildest imagination could I hike hard for four hours straight, even when I really need to, four minutes of trying to squeeze past those Miracle mums would give me a hernia.

Edited by iGRF - 18 Dec 17 at 4:24pm
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Post Options Post Options   Quote iGRF Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Dec 17 at 1:31pm
So, are we pretty much agreed then that pumping in making a class faster shouldn't impact on it's handicap to the point that the result if permitted could badly upset club competition?

If so, then why are we so tolerant of the Great Lakes series where it is acknowledged that only the faster and better are considered for their handicap rating and thus it effects negatively the handicap of the Laser, which in turn negatively effects those of us racing against Lasers at club level?

Edited by iGRF - 18 Dec 17 at 1:32pm
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Post Options Post Options   Quote mozzy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Dec 17 at 2:50pm
iGRF, read the couple of posts I put up. Having this rule in the class rules don't mean much, you'd still need the rule to be in the NoR or SI for the handicap race for it to happen, at which point every boat in the event would be allowed. And even then the Race Committee would still need to trigger it by putting up the O Flag.

But even if there was some scenario  where class rules allowed some classes to pump and some not in the same race (which I can't see there is), how would it be any different to any other change to class rules which have resulted in a change in performance? Basically, if the pumping was faster, you'd see it in returns and their number would slowly come down. 

I really don't think this has any relevance to handicaps. 

What seems more interesting, is that by inserting these rules in to class rules, it suggests the class is inviting organisers to have it in SIs and NoR. So it does seem like a slippage to free pumping. 

I'd be interested to know why, if the rule has to be echoed in the SI's why it's in the class rules? Is the rule in the Standard SIs for the Aeros and how many events will take up the class associations offer to use this? 


Edited by mozzy - 18 Dec 17 at 2:53pm
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Dougaldog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Dec 17 at 3:01pm
Well said Mike @ Cirrus..... a slippery slope indeed. Some of the other RS class events allowed you to hit the mark without sanction - when we ran various Nationals for them, this was one change that was not allowed. On the one time we let them run it, the Race Team witnessed  some pretty grim rule observance at the leeward gate. As Mike correctly points out, the law on unintended circumstances looms large.

Not long after the event just referred to, I was on a Protest Jury hearing the case of a couple of boats in a PY race that had bounced off the marks and sailed on - with their defence being "but we're allowed to hit them"......

I'm not sure what the rationale for the change might be.....from what I see from the Committee Boat, the good guys vote for this because they do it better (maybe they are doing it already and no one is protesting) - so the rich get richer. Fine if you like that sort of thing!
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Rupert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Dec 17 at 3:05pm
A2Z, hiking balances the wind, pumping creates artificial wind. There is a difference.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote mozzy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Dec 17 at 3:06pm
Originally posted by iGRF

I would argue obviously that hiking is more physical than 'air rowing'. Back in the day I once 'Air rowed' my way around Hayling Island in a race, it took four hours. Not in my wildest imagination could I hike hard for four fours straight, even when I really need to, four minutes of trying to squeeze past those Miracle mums would give me a hernia.

Both are physically demanding. One aerobically and one isometric strength. Which is harder will be personal I guess. 

I think the difference is when air rowing you are 'doing work' in the physics sense. You're putting energy in to the system. Hiking you aren't doing any 'work', you're just balancing a force. You're not putting energy in to the system. 

As a result hiking allows the boat to go quicker because you're able to harness more force from the wind, but 100% of the energy is still coming from the wind. But rewards for hiking hard are more marginal than pumping hard where you are directly powering your boat around the course.  


Edited by mozzy - 18 Dec 17 at 3:15pm
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Post Options Post Options   Quote mozzy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Dec 17 at 3:07pm
Lol, Rupert managed to say what I did in one sentence!
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Post Options Post Options   Quote iGRF Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Dec 17 at 4:20pm
Originally posted by Rupert

A2Z, hiking balances the wind, pumping creates artificial wind. There is a difference.
Now who's being naive?
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Rupert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Dec 17 at 5:03pm
Originally posted by iGRF

Originally posted by Rupert

A2Z, hiking balances the wind, pumping creates artificial wind. There is a difference.
Now who's being naive?


Why?
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