Setting a course around the cans.....

We had pretty bad case of this last weekend, which I royally screwed up by treating all marks as rounding marks. I've now learnt that our sailing instructions don't specify that any marks are rounding marks. 
But it got me thinking about w/l with a gate. In the course below, what would stop boats from spinning around 3s then heading straight for the finish?

 Does the diagram or the word 'rounding' go far enough to remove ambiguity as to whether the mark is a rounding mark? 

Edited by mozzy - 30 Aug 18 at 12:50pm

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Guests Send Private Message Find Member's Posts Guest Group	Post Options Post Reply Quote Guests Quote Reply Topic: Setting a course around the cans..... Posted: 30 Aug 18 at 12:48pm
	We had pretty bad case of this last weekend, which I royally screwed up by treating all marks as rounding marks. I've now learnt that our sailing instructions don't specify that any marks are rounding marks. But it got me thinking about w/l with a gate. In the course below, what would stop boats from spinning around 3s then heading straight for the finish? Does the diagram or the word 'rounding' go far enough to remove ambiguity as to whether the mark is a rounding mark? Edited by mozzy - 30 Aug 18 at 12:50pm

Brass Send Private Message Find Member's Posts Really should get out more Joined: 24 Mar 08 Location: Australia Online Status: Offline Posts: 1146	Post Options Post Reply Quote Brass Report Post Quote Reply Posted: 30 Aug 18 at 1:29pm
	The diagram clearly illustrates that boats are required to round all marks. They are all rounding marks. The required side of each mark is the side illustrated. Sorry, I don't follow you about 'spinning around 3S'.

furtive Send Private Message Find Member's Posts Posting king Joined: 30 Mar 05 Online Status: Offline Posts: 188	Post Options Post Reply Quote furtive Report Post Quote Reply Posted: 30 Aug 18 at 1:34pm
	Not sure what you mean by "spinning around" either. I think a boat could leave the whole gate (3S and 3P) to port on the way to the finish though, if they wanted to for some reason...

Guests Send Private Message Find Member's Posts Guest Group	Post Options Post Reply Quote Guests Quote Reply Posted: 30 Aug 18 at 1:42pm
	Given course 02, could a boat do one full loop around 3s (passing mark 2 to port as she goes), then take 3p to port, 5 to port then finish? J2.1 (5) descriptions of marks, including starting and finishing marks, stating the order in which marks are to be passed and the side on which each is to be left and identifying all rounding marks (see rule 28.2); Have the marks in the diagram been sufficiently identified as rounding marks? If they have, what element of the course description in the SIs make that so? Edited by mozzy - 30 Aug 18 at 1:43pm

Brass Send Private Message Find Member's Posts Really should get out more Joined: 24 Mar 08 Location: Australia Online Status: Offline Posts: 1146	Post Options Post Reply Quote Brass Report Post Quote Reply Posted: 30 Aug 18 at 2:55pm
	Where did you get that diagram from? I have to agree that it does not show how 2 shall be rounded on any leg after leg 2/3. See Appendix L Addendum A for the proper way to illustrate a Trap course. I know there were some problems with the courses shown in Appendix S and they were replaced/amended, but Appendix S doesn't have trap courses.

Guests Send Private Message Find Member's Posts Guest Group	Post Options Post Reply Quote Guests Quote Reply Posted: 30 Aug 18 at 4:12pm
	RS700 nationals this year. They were in a joint event with the 800s but on an outer loop. The 800s had a spreader mark, which makes the sneaky loop around 3s not possible, as you would pass the spreader to port before the windward mark. But basically most sailing instructions we do on the circuit are like this. Sometimes there is a note that all marks are rounding marks, but often just a course diagram. I was just wondering what constitutes ambiguity as references in the RYA case 1985/4 quoted by Presuming Ed.

Brass Send Private Message Find Member's Posts Really should get out more Joined: 24 Mar 08 Location: Australia Online Status: Offline Posts: 1146	Post Options Post Reply Quote Brass Report Post Quote Reply Posted: 30 Aug 18 at 11:41pm
	Sorry I was a bit quick on the draw with my initial answer. The diagram dose NOT 'illustrate' that Mark 2 at the end of the 4th leg is a rounding mark, nor which hand it is to be left on. The diagram has omitted the path between 3p/3s and 2 on the 4th leg. To save the race, however, I would be satisfied that the heading 'Mark Rounding Order' was sufficient to say that all marks are rounding marks and that Mark 2 must be rounded after 3p/3s, so the 3s spin is not on. This still leaves the problem about which hand 2 is to be rounded on.

JimC Send Private Message Find Member's Posts Visit Member's Homepage Really should get out more Joined: 17 May 04 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 6649	Post Options Post Reply Quote JimC Report Post Quote Reply Posted: 31 Aug 18 at 5:28am
	It's a shame 3s isn't drawn green. That would arguably give clarity to rounding direction.

Brass Send Private Message Find Member's Posts Really should get out more Joined: 24 Mar 08 Location: Australia Online Status: Offline Posts: 1146	Post Options Post Reply Quote Brass Report Post Quote Reply Posted: 31 Aug 18 at 6:49am
	I think the arrow around 3s is quite sufficient to illustrate rounding to starboard. The problem lies with 2, other than the leg 1 - 2.

furtive Send Private Message Find Member's Posts Posting king Joined: 30 Mar 05 Online Status: Offline Posts: 188	Post Options Post Reply Quote furtive Report Post Quote Reply Posted: 31 Aug 18 at 7:54am
	Showing 3s as green could cause further problems if the actual mark is red...