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Kicker angle

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    Posted: 28 Nov 17 at 5:01pm
Originally posted by davidyacht

Originally posted by Presuming Ed

Assuming the OP sails a Hadron H2, isnít it a little odd that rig issues like this werenít sorted at prototype stage?

The OP might be wrong ...

Given the people involved with developing the H2 I find it surprising that they would have missed something obvious like this (or gone down a different route). Certainly my chat with Keith when he bought them to Hunts was that he paid a lot of attention to the rig as well as the hull form so it is likely it was designed around not having lowers or a ram....
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Post Options Post Options   Quote davidyacht Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Nov 17 at 4:24pm
Originally posted by Presuming Ed

Assuming the OP sails a Hadron H2, isnít it a little odd that rig issues like this werenít sorted at prototype stage?

The OP might be wrong ...
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Nov 17 at 2:42pm
It all depends on what you've learnt sail controls to do. In all the boats I've sailed the kicker has been used to depower the sail and the main sheet has been used to hold leech tension. I a couple of classes you've got a traveller to hold the same leech tension off centre too.  Up wind if the boom is off the centre line I really want the sail depowered, so I'm very rarely looking for a tighter leech in a situation where I can't achieve it with more main. 

Additionally, with a jib, plus a kite, when the main is off centre I actually want the boom to lift to create more twist as the bottom of the sail needs to be sheeted significantly closer than the top (especially true in the 200 where you have a significant amount of main with no spinnaker to prebend the wind) . 

I can see a situation when close reaching in a single sail boat where you'd want more power with the boom out past the extent of the traveller (where you can do the same with main tension). 


Edited by mozzy - 28 Nov 17 at 2:57pm
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JimC View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Nov 17 at 2:22pm
Well, not everyone has the same ideas about what's good in rigs. There are loads of classes with what I would regard as inadequate lower mast control and excessive low down mast bend that their owners are perfect satisfied with sailing.

Edited by JimC - 28 Nov 17 at 2:31pm
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Post Options Post Options   Quote iGRF Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Nov 17 at 2:20pm
I haven't yet sailed this boat, but I'd be very wary of boatpark advice like that.

Is it not, what do you call it 'hog stepped', as stupid a term as ever there were, the mast on the deck and the kicker appears to be lead lower anyway. The Boom isn't exactly half way up the mast either, so I can't see any liklihood of massive distortion of the lower half of the sail.

Plus, again, I don't know any of this, but it's been built recently so I'd imagine the luff curve of the sail is matched to perform with a bent mast and very often that mast bend assists in gust response if any of the lessons we've learned in windsurfing have jumped the gap which they must have by now.

So until you hear from some of those connected with it's design and production I'd hesitate in a) criticism and b) adding on crap that isn't needed like lowers, they get in the bloody way of everything.

Edited by iGRF - 28 Nov 17 at 4:11pm
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Presuming Ed Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Nov 17 at 2:04pm
Assuming the OP sails a Hadron H2, isnít it a little odd that rig issues like this werenít sorted at prototype stage?
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Post Options Post Options   Quote zippyRN Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Nov 17 at 12:45pm
Originally posted by JimC

I would find it very hard to design a modern style gust responsive rig with no gooseneck level control. I think for a boat with such restrictions I'd have to be thinking about a very expensive custom mast which was heavily beefed up at least to the spreaders in order that there wasn't mast bend where its not wanted. As I understand things as soon as you start using the spreaders to push the mid mast back then the gust response goes to hell, and the boat gets a lot less pleasant to sail. With my IC I found that if I put the spreaders forward to add power, the resulting handling characteristics deteriorated to such an extent that it was faster to put the spreaders back and accept the reduced power.

you could do that with carbon  or  with an internal sleeve , i'm not sure how far up the mast the sleeves that   were put into proctor Ds  were  pre  D+  section  went 
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Post Options Post Options   Quote sargesail Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Nov 17 at 12:40pm
Originally posted by JimC

I would find it very hard to design a modern style gust responsive rig with no gooseneck level control. I think for a boat with such restrictions I'd have to be thinking about a very expensive custom mast which was heavily beefed up at least to the spreaders in order that there wasn't mast bend where its not wanted. As I understand things as soon as you start using the spreaders to push the mid mast back then the gust response goes to hell, and the boat gets a lot less pleasant to sail. With my IC I found that if I put the spreaders forward to add power, the resulting handling characteristics deteriorated to such an extent that it was faster to put the spreaders back and accept the reduced power.

Yes even with something as low tech as the 2000, I reached the point of catastrophic boat speed and handling loss when I went just that little bit too far.  At neutral and a tiny bit forward all OK.  One hole more and it was horrible).
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Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Nov 17 at 11:26am
I would find it very hard to design a modern style gust responsive rig with no gooseneck level control. I think for a boat with such restrictions I'd have to be thinking about a very expensive custom mast which was heavily beefed up at least to the spreaders in order that there wasn't mast bend where its not wanted. As I understand things as soon as you start using the spreaders to push the mid mast back then the gust response goes to hell, and the boat gets a lot less pleasant to sail. With my IC I found that if I put the spreaders forward to add power, the resulting handling characteristics deteriorated to such an extent that it was faster to put the spreaders back and accept the reduced power.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Ian99 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Nov 17 at 11:02am
Given how new the class is, I'd go in with proposing a rule change to allow fixed lower shrouds.
It sounds like the rig needs them, all options of kicker will still bend the mast at the gooseneck if it's not supported or the mast made stiffer.
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