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So? I am not a number article?

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turnturtle View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote turnturtle Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Nov 17 at 4:41pm
Are you sure hes on the PYAG? According GRF the PYAG has major identity politics issues it needs to resolve... unless this guy just happens to be one of those welsh fellas back from a fancy dress party as a bobsleigh driver...
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JimC View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Nov 17 at 4:46pm
https://www.rya.org.uk/SiteCollectionDocuments/technical/Web%20Documents/2007%20Portsmouth%20Yardstick%20Scheme/2007%20Instructions%20for%20Worksheet.pdf

All that has really changed is that the calculation is now done on the website backend. I'll take issue with my predecessor on only one point. To talk about a theoretical best time is flawed. A very appealing flaw, but still a flaw. There is no such thing. It makes no practical difference though.

Edited by JimC - 22 Nov 17 at 5:06pm
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Post Options Post Options   Quote mozzy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Nov 17 at 4:55pm
Originally posted by Sam.Spoons

I'm sure it does but as an aim I think it has much to commend it. If it was possible to process the results of the best 10% of sailors across a full range of classes (and sailing conditions) that would get closer to the handicappers ideal of the number representing the boats' relative performance.

Yeah, it's their aim and they are clear about that. That's great, but what I'm saying is, they're not clear about how they get to that aim. What I'm trying to point out is that at some-point, people on that committee are having to make subjective judgements and why class Y, despite constantly finishing in the bottom half, shouldn't have there PY increased. 

Also, handicapping to the top 10% may be more reflective of a boats potential performance, but that doesn't work for the middle of the fleet. I reckon I could get much closer to top 10% laser sailor despite not spending much time in the boat, than a top 10% 49er sailor. It's not because I think laser sailors aren't as good, but because the drop of in performance for a 49er is greater than a laser. Mid fleet Mark could get a laser round a course and finish, Mid-fleet Mark probably couldn't get a 49er around a course. 

So, it's fine GL declaring their handicapping for the top boats.  That's where they're giving prizes out so there's some rationale. But it does mean the results down the fleet aren't going to be as reflective of performance. Deciding whether to tailor the handicaps to the top or middle of the fleet is again another subjective decision. 

My ultimate point is, the whole thing is so subjective, that really it warrants no more credibility than ad-hoc head starts given to different boats in the off the cuff pursuit races I've taken part in. That's not to mean it can't be fun; it just means people shouldn't invest the time worrying about it that they do, and probably means it shouldn't be the basis for national competitions or the future of our sport. 
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Sam.Spoons Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Nov 17 at 7:44pm
Good points all, and as you say, fast boats are often harder to sail but that just reinforces the point that in an ideal world* handicaps would only reflect the potential of the boat and not the sailing ability of the people who typically sail it..... You want to win on handicap in a fast boat, you have to invest more time learning to sail it. And, equally, the mid fleet L@ser sailor is not entitled to a free ride because he outnumbers the top guys (which is what happens now but with the caveat that the top guys in L@sers probably feature in very few if any handicap returns).

TBF this has been one of the more interesting PY discussions with some fairly constructive suggestions cropping up.

*(ok, in an ideal world, some would say, we'd all be class racing our favourite boat Wink).
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Hector Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Dec 17 at 1:22am
One of main reasons some boats numbers don't change is that there isn't enough data to justify it.

Keith
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Sam.Spoons Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Dec 17 at 9:17am
That is true, and for those of us who 'occasionally' race one of the 'lost classes' it's a frustration because, as has been discussed many times before, the hypothetical baseline drifts. At the moment that seems to be upwards (Lasers are not getting slower in real terms are they?) which leaves those boats at an increasing disadvantage. At least if the baseline was fixed (as when the Firefly was the 'scratch' boat in the '60s) that disadvantage would be pegged at the age related decrease in performance caused by flexy overweight hulls and tired sails. I'll bet if the baseline drift was the other way causing a few 'lost classes' to achieve 'bandit' status the handicappers would do something about it...... Except, of course, they would never know 'cos those boats would almost never appear in the returns. The other option would be to estimate the effect of that 'drift' and publish a suggested compensation factor to encourage those old boats back into the handicap fleets (local handicap committees are notoriously reluctant to make changes for fear of upsetting some of the fleet).
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Post Options Post Options   Quote johnr Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Dec 17 at 8:08pm
Handicap racing can't really be taken seriously as the variables are immense. Take a 420 as an example. In sub ten knots you are going to struggle and in over 15 knots you are probable in the chocolates. Musto skiffs on a big course stands significantly better chance than that of a lake with 100 yard legs and shifting winds. This is just two examples of likely many more. Add to this personal handicapping at sailing clubs and you have a even bigger drop in credibility.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Sam.Spoons Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Dec 17 at 8:39pm
It's only a matter of degree, class racing in a 400 the big guys will win when it's blowing and there's lots of windward work the little guys will win in marginal planing on a reaching course. The weather, venue and course will always make a difference but the good big guys will usually beat the mediocre little guys in the light and visa versa.

Class racing certainly reduces the variables but doesn't eliminate them entirely.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote H2 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Jan 18 at 11:02am
Originally posted by johnr

Handicap racing can't really be taken seriously as the variables are immense. Take a 420 as an example. In sub ten knots you are going to struggle and in over 15 knots you are probable in the chocolates. Musto skiffs on a big course stands significantly better chance than that of a lake with 100 yard legs and shifting winds. This is just two examples of likely many more. Add to this personal handicapping at sailing clubs and you have a even bigger drop in credibility.

Which is why many handicap races use a series of races over say 10 weekends so that on average the results of the series represents a fair outcome. To say handicap racing cant be taken seriously is just cockwomble
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Cirrus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Jan 18 at 11:17am
To say handicap racing cant be taken seriously is just cockwomble...

Agree.  But it seems that some who decry handicap racing, have strong views on why nobody else should take it seriously either  LOL ...  Well possibly they would of course however plainly illogical.  It must be the herd thing or something.  

If you don't want to take part nobody is dragging anyone along to do so .... You don't approve  ? ...  fine with the rest of us and you are perfectly entitled to hold that view just as others ... etc.  But why all the 'noise' if it is smply not for you or you 'don't get it' ? 

Start a thread on the 'purity' and 'divinity' that is strict one design class racing maybe - just saying.  It is not 'either' / 'or' anyway.    
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