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So? I am not a number article?
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423zero View Drop Down
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Posts: 3406 		Post Options Post Options   Quote 423zero Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: So? I am not a number article?
    Posted: 17 Nov 17 at 10:08am
Enjoyed reading article.
PYAG knockers, you must have worked out at least who two of them are, do you really think they would sit in smoke filled rooms and favour older classes.
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Posts: 749 		Post Options Post Options   Quote H2 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Nov 17 at 10:25am
Originally posted by Rupert

There is a much more simple answer to new boats being given a slightly harsh number at an open event than conspiracy. You have a fleet of 100 boats, say. 4 of them are new. You give them generous numbers, and they come 1,2,3,4. You now have 96 unhappy sailors. Give them an ungenerous number. They are likely to be decent sailors, so beat loads of people, and come somewhere in the teens or 20s. Maybe even top 10 if really good. The 4 know they were in boats with ENs, so don't take the results too seriously, and enjoy the racing and showing off new toys. The 96 don't feel they have been beaten by a spreadsheet, and enjoy racing against the new toys.

Some pillock then goes on Y&Y and starts moaning about conspiracy theories. Readers start to think what a bunch of moaning Minnie's the marketeers of said class are, and decide not to bother trying one.

As the owner of a new class in the Hadron H2 I will be showing up to some of the SailJuice races and I totally agree with what Rupert sets out here. I am fine with the crappy PY that we have been given under the GL system and am looking forward to just racing in a bigger fleet and the challenges that will bring!
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Posts: 749 		Post Options Post Options   Quote H2 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Nov 17 at 10:26am
Also - I should add that I loved the article and it had nothing to do with being in one of the photos!
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Posts: 356 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Dougaldog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Nov 17 at 10:34am
A big thank you to all those who have commented directly - even those who thought the views misplaced or downright wrong. The good news is that it is clearly possible to engage in a debate on the topic in a positive tone. However, since writing it, I was gifted a folder of documents (albeit from the late 1960s) which clearly show collusion in regard to a PY for a new class. In that respect then, the case is proven that it has happened, but I would be very careful of making the link that this could/would still happen in modern times. You might think that but I couldn't possibly comment.....

And so on to Part 2! The working title for this was 'snakes' - as Part 3 will be 'ladders'. Let's look at what is, if not wrong, then what could be working better......and then look at possible ways forward.

One thing is clear to me, with every club I visit, every boat that I look at - the very nature of the sport is changing and just trying to continue to do the same old things in the hope that the results will be different is the very definition of insanity...... 
Dougal H
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Posts: 3048 		Post Options Post Options   Quote jeffers Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Nov 17 at 10:41am
Originally posted by Sam.Spoons

Is the first EN new classes get allocated proposed by the PYAG or the builder/designer/marketing department? I've long held the belief that the class have an input and choose a number that achieves a certain aim. New "skiffy thing" lets choose a low number we know the boat will never sail to so prospective buyers think it's proper fast? New "Oppi beater" give it a higher number so "little Johnnie/Janie's" early results will make them look good?.....

edit :- excellent article BTW  Thumbs Up

Neither in reality. it is down to clubs where the boats are sailed to allocate an EN. The PYAG will not allocate a number without data (and rightly so) and a builder recommnded number should always be treated with a large pinch of salt (but they are damned if they do and damned if they don't).

FWIW the D-Zero sailed on 1010 or 1015 for the first 2 years in the GL series. We all ignored the overall results and concentrated on having fun and racing each other.

In terms of EN clubs should pick a similar boat as a starting point. Difficult for the H2 as there isn't really a comparable boat out there but fir the D-Zero I suggested the Rooster 8.1 (it was the boat I sailed previously so allowed a fairly easy direct comparison of my results).

My gut feeling for the H2 is that it will settle out as a similar sort of speed overall to the D-Zero (having raced against them a couple of times and sailed a H2).
Paul
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Nov 17 at 10:44am
There's quite a few good reasons to be a bit hard on ENs. Obviously, the new class will be a minority, so less people are disadvantaged that way.

In a new boat not only is everyone new to it, but the class doesn't have a history of technique development to employ. It takes a while for the collective and individuals to hone technique. This is especially true of skiff type boats. Often a EN that is just out of grasp ends up being about right. And if it's not, it's diplomatically a lot easier to increase a classes PY than reduce it. I really don't think it's a conspiracy to stifle new classes.

Also I don't think there is any manufacture / designer conspiracy. They'd want a fair-ish number so buyers aren't immediately disillusioned. But really I imagine most are aiming to create a new 'class' with large fleets. In which case they would be better focused on the type of sailing the design lends it self to, off the water practicality and cost. 


Edited by mozzy - 17 Nov 17 at 10:59am
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iGRF View Drop Down
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Posts: 6496 		Post Options Post Options   Quote iGRF Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Nov 17 at 11:48am
So, if there is no conspiracy, why the lack of transparency? No, not just lack of transparency, secrecy,as someone back there said, this isn't the CIA/MI6, there are no state secrets, there are 'volunteers' who are worse in lots of ways when it comes to accountability. Or are they protecting the jobsworths at the RYA, who was it I wonder who refused permission for David to 'sit in' on one of their smoke filled room get togethers.

That guy that came down to our club to promote the system seemed like a reasonable enough chap (sorry can't remember his name is he still there even), so why not permit a fully informed article on the system or is he another grass roots casualty like our windsurfing Team fifteen lady who was 'vanished' suddenly?


Edited by iGRF - 17 Nov 17 at 11:49am
Snow Equipment Deals    New Core Kite website
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Nov 17 at 12:32pm
Do you mean the SJ/RYA? I think there is required a certain amount of subjective filtering of results, otherwise if it were a pure formulae from raw data then they would just publish it.  I imagine the lack of transparency is to a) allow frank discussion between the committee b) not undermine the number by admitting that. It doesn't mean there is a conspiracy though. 

In cycling you have midweek handicap races. It's based on ability rather than equipment, but basically, the commissionaire set off the 4th Category riders first, then 3rds, then 2nds, then 1st and elites. He just makes the gaps up on the spot and adjusts next week to get a closer finish.  Because it's obvious how ad-hoc it is, no-one takes it too seriously and it's all good fun. 

The problem with handicap racing is people give the numbers and results far more respect than they're due. It would be better if sport just acknowledged it's not to be taken seriously. 

Which brings me to where I disagree with the 'solution' the article points toward. The answer isn't to add complexity sell a false hope of some super fair complex model. It's to admit it's a bit of fun, the results don't mean much, just have fun doing it, then get out class racing when you want proper competition.  
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Posts: 50 		Post Options Post Options   Quote chris_wht Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Nov 17 at 12:51pm
Originally posted by davidyacht

I think that it is a bit unrealistic to introduce some of the concepts that DH proposes, a lot of the problems in recruiting RO’s relate to the perceptions of complexity in managing handicap races.


this...

on more than one occasion ive had people on the comitee boat unable to tell the difference between a B14 and an Int 14 or a dart and a nacra 17... adding more complexity is a terrifying concept LOL

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Posts: 3398 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Sam.Spoons Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Nov 17 at 12:55pm
That shouldn't be necessary unless you happen to have two boats with identical sail numbers. Even then they'd need to be similar in performance before is ceased to be obvious which was which

Edited by Sam.Spoons - 17 Nov 17 at 12:56pm
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