J24 (Sail No. 4239) Dartmouth |
29er GBR 074 Tynemouth |
Laurent Giles 'Jolly Boat' Exeter |
List classes of boat for sale |
Handicap Sailing |
Post Reply | Page <12345> |
Author | |
Gordon 1430
Far too distracted from work Joined: 27 Jun 17 Location: Lee on Solent Online Status: Offline Posts: 310 |
Post Options
Quote Reply
Topic: Handicap Sailing Posted: 30 Oct 17 at 1:11pm |
Yes Grf I do read most of what's posted on here, and do you honestly think the 50 or so people who us this forum represent the majority of dinghy sailors?
Even amongst those of us who do use the forum I still think the majority believe we have a good system as stated before.
|
|
Gordon
Phantom 1430 |
|
Cirrus
Really should get out more Joined: 29 Oct 15 Location: UK Online Status: Offline Posts: 590 |
Post Options Quote Reply Posted: 30 Oct 17 at 1:20pm |
Clubs are encouraged to 'adjust' PNs by the RYA are they not ... ? But many don't bother or perhaps suspect they would be on the receiving end of 'lobbying' from various malcontents who may often have a vested interest in the status quo. However that does not make it an unreasonable proposal by the RYA.
The GL approach is however almost exactly applying the RYA's proposals - they adjust the RYA PN numbers to reflect experience. 1000+ individual competitors each year at the SJ series seem to accept it well enough, it provides great racing and the GL numbers use is increasing at other locations and events. This must mean more racing organisers do see something in the RYA's (and GL) proposal / approach. The GL number system, as an adjusted package of numbers, may even today constitute a 'fig-leaf valued by some clubs given the 'proactive feedback' that would come from some of their members if they dared evolve their own local set of numbers. GL ones are an 'off the shelf' already adjusted package ... Nobody is forced to compete at the SJ series etc etc - 'you' don't have to take part if you don't want but I suspect not all vocal critics will have often done so in the past anyway. Hey ho .. Each to their own. This subject always makes it a good day to sit back in the deckchair with beverage and crisps ..... and just watching ! Edited by Cirrus - 30 Oct 17 at 1:37pm |
|
iGRF
Really should get out more Joined: 07 Mar 11 Location: Hythe Online Status: Offline Posts: 6496 |
Post Options Quote Reply Posted: 30 Oct 17 at 1:52pm |
Well I don't disagree with you in the context of advice for this thread, as you might have noticed had you read what I'd said prior to telling everyone to ignore it. That doesn't mean I think it's a good thing as it stands, nor do I think the GL system is any better, but I'm bored saying it, or suggesting anything different to this collection of folk who wouldn't change, even if someone came up with the Golden solution. |
|
H2
Really should get out more Joined: 26 Jul 17 Online Status: Offline Posts: 749 |
Post Options Quote Reply Posted: 30 Oct 17 at 1:57pm |
I know its totally unworkable but I sometimes wonder if a boat should have two handicaps, one for wind below X and one for wind above X. In the past this was impossible but now that clubs use plug in like WindGuru its possible to track the wind speed measured on top of club house over the duration of the days race and then apply the handicap based upon the most prevalent wind conditions. Let the flaming begin.
|
|
Eisvogel
Posting king Joined: 09 Dec 16 Location: Birmingham Online Status: Offline Posts: 135 |
Post Options Quote Reply Posted: 30 Oct 17 at 2:00pm |
More relevant than the wind is probably the course setting. At our pond, you can have any mixture of beats/reaches/runs, and some courses suit some classes better than others.
There are just too many variables, so it seems futile to find anything even approximating a perfect solution.
|
|
Enterprise 20361 (Eisvogel), Laser 102727 (Halcyon), Laser 121986
|
|
ohFFsake
Far too distracted from work Joined: 04 Sep 08 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 219 |
Post Options Quote Reply Posted: 30 Oct 17 at 4:21pm |
GL just seems to be PY but based on a smaller selection set and with an arguable degree of commercial interest...
I would suggest that if you feel PY is producing consistently unfair results at your club then propose some local adjustments and apply them retrospectively to the last two or three years results to see what the effect would have been. Then take these to the sailing committee to see what everyone else thinks.
|
|
davidyacht
Really should get out more Joined: 29 Mar 05 Online Status: Offline Posts: 1345 |
Post Options Quote Reply Posted: 30 Oct 17 at 5:11pm |
You might find that some competitors dont mind a worse handicap if it results in a greater perception of fairness. What does not go down well is if the handicap is adjusted in a way that it can be perceived as a personal handicap system that favours the less competent ... unless it is promoted as such.
We turned up with a Yawl at the Chichester Snowflake a few years back, and our handicap was adjusted by a minute on a weekly basis until we stopped winning; we didnt really mind, it made for better and more enjoyable racing for everone.
|
|
Happily living in the past
|
|
andymck
Far too distracted from work Joined: 15 Dec 06 Location: Stamford Online Status: Offline Posts: 397 |
Post Options Quote Reply Posted: 30 Oct 17 at 5:19pm |
The sail wave program will soon pick out if you have a bandit issue. It will give you an idea of how people are performing against their handicap within your fleet. In most clubs the national level sailors can usually perform 6 or 7 per cent quicker than their handicap compared to the fleet average if there is a good spread of ability.
You can spot the issues easily when the winning boat is usually 15 per cent quicker, and the average sailors in that class are also outperforming the fleet average. This is what happened at Hunts with the Phantom, and I am sure any light quickly accelerating vessel would do the same there, so I am not surprised about the D zero comment. We seem to be very reluctant to share the chocolates in sailing. In other club individual sports there is often a system to adjust individual performance, and an inclusivity for prizes. If on a sailing committee I would write into the club rules a mechanism for correcting outliers. At least with the Great Lakes system we know that we will see changes, even if they are not always to my liking. |
|
Andy Mck
|
|
Cirrus
Really should get out more Joined: 29 Oct 15 Location: UK Online Status: Offline Posts: 590 |
Post Options Quote Reply Posted: 30 Oct 17 at 8:45pm |
GL just seems to be PY but based on a smaller selection set and with an arguable degree of commercial interest...
Quite a charge to make .... Evidence of 'commercial interest' at least then please ? |
|
Rupert
Really should get out more Joined: 11 Aug 04 Location: Whitefriars sc Online Status: Offline Posts: 8956 |
Post Options Quote Reply Posted: 30 Oct 17 at 8:51pm |
The whole thing is a plot by the pushchair maker to have their boat win handicap races, didn't you know?
|
|
Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686
|
|
Post Reply | Page <12345> |
Forum Jump | Forum Permissions You cannot post new topics in this forum You cannot reply to topics in this forum You cannot delete your posts in this forum You cannot edit your posts in this forum You cannot create polls in this forum You cannot vote in polls in this forum |