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Sam.Spoons View Drop Down
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    Posted: 18 Sep 17 at 9:35pm
Originally posted by By The Lee

Originally posted by Sam.Spoons

IIRC, we used to be allowed one 'ooch' as well as one pump to promote planing (back in the '70s, then it became irrelevant to me as I was racing windsurfers). 

As far as I can see rule 42.3 doesn't allow 'torquing' when sailing upwind (very prevalent amongst L@ser sailors (along with rocking, pumping and ooching downwind). No longer does a (to paraphrase Eric T) "a chorus of 'heave' in time with the offenders rhythm" seem effective......

That is because it isn't prohibited under 42.2 as it does not propel the boat forward.... most Laser events have on the water jury judging rule 42 sailors are rarely flagged upwind a torquing doesn't propel the boat. "rocking, pumping and ooching downwind" is permitted as long as it accompanies a change in course as permitted by 42.3. Must club sailors sit still like a sack of potatoes then wonder why the are painfully slow 

That sound's like tacit acceptance in the way that pumping was for windsurfing. The WS racers argued it was too much a natural part of sailing a board to be outlawed and it was legalised, to the benefit of the young, fit (and usually big) athletes. I'm not saying dinghy racing should not be an athletic pursuit but as it moves (as windsurfing did with Formula Windsurfing) towards brute force being the main requirement for winning over tactics and finesse it becomes a less attractive sport to me.
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Posts: 114 		Post Options Post Options   Quote By The Lee Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Sep 17 at 9:41pm
Fair point personally I think of it as a exciting physicality however I could see why this might not be appealing to all...
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Sam.Spoons View Drop Down
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Posts: 3398 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Sam.Spoons Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Sep 17 at 9:50pm
And that may be part of the reason I don't sail L@sers (and BTW may be part of the reason GRF's much despised 'classic classes' are still popular as the reward tactics and fineness more than simple physicality,

BTW I was pretty good on a Raceboard at regional level (and did once win a Masters National Champs) particularly in the light stuff so I do get the 'exciting physicality' bit (I could pump with the best of them in a drifter) but, in Raceboards, the move to a 9.5 metre sail was a step too far for me.
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Posts: 6496 		Post Options Post Options   Quote iGRF Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Sep 17 at 10:21pm
You can blame me for pumping being permitted in windsurfing which in those days of 5.4 and 6.3 race sails was less duress than leaning into a 9.5 that's for sure.

I have learned how to do most of the illegal stuff in dinghies, I don't do it on the lake, but on the sea, you can't help yourself, everything is so fluid, back and forth, side to side with the wave motion it seems silly to waste all that helpful natural energy and convert it into forward motion with symbiotic body movements. It's not like windsurfing you simply cannot get the forward scoop movement to produce a continuous flowing, air rowing movement that you can on a rig free of all constraints. There's an annoying delay once you sheet in, whilst the rig sheets out, refills and you can haul it again, it doesn't make sense to keep hauling it either so it does actually make sense to just time the yank with the right moment as the stern lifts on a wave.
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Posts: 8956 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Rupert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Sep 17 at 8:20am
Wasting natural energy isn't the problem. Creating unnatural energy is.
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Posts: 3398 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Sam.Spoons Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Sep 17 at 9:39am
Originally posted by iGRF

You can blame me for pumping being permitted in windsurfing which in those days of 5.4 and 6.3 race sails was less duress than leaning into a 9.5 that's for sure.

I guess it was inevitable that it would happen. I started in DIV1 (Sailboard Vario and Tushingham dacron 6.3 soft sail on an ally mast and 2.7m boom) and moved through having strong and light wind 6m camber induced sails (6.0 SRS bought off John Tushingham, brilliant in the light, unmanageable above F4) on my Mistral Superlight (best board ever in the light stuff). The move to Raceboards and 7.5m sails was good and the combination of a Demon Design VG5 (I've had 4, still have the most recent) and a Mistral Equipe 2 was well on the pace and a perfect setup for the average (i.e. not super-fit or super large) sailor. I could/can pump it in 0-20 knots and hang on in 25 (but not the 30 knots that Sean Cox claims it is useable in).

I have learned how to do most of the illegal stuff in dinghies, I don't do it on the lake, but on the sea, you can't help yourself, everything is so fluid, back and forth, side to side with the wave motion it seems silly to waste all that helpful natural energy and convert it into forward motion with symbiotic body movements. It's not like windsurfing you simply cannot get the forward scoop movement to produce a continuous flowing, air rowing movement that you can on a rig free of all constraints. There's an annoying delay once you sheet in, whilst the rig sheets out, refills and you can haul it again, it doesn't make sense to keep hauling it either so it does actually make sense to just time the yank with the right moment as the stern lifts on a wave.

Which is legal (and almost always has been so).....

I wonder if the huge advantage Steve Cockrell's '4th dimension' confers is because it is a 'legal' (?) way of rocking/pumping?


Edited by Sam.Spoons - 19 Sep 17 at 9:40am
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Posts: 6496 		Post Options Post Options   Quote iGRF Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Sep 17 at 12:17pm
4th Dimension? what's that? Linky?
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Posts: 245 		Post Options Post Options   Quote KazRob Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Sep 17 at 1:05pm
4th Dimension is just sailing by the lee really, but to me Steve's main innovation was to bear off when the boat rolled to windward to bring it upright again instead of sharply heading up to windward and letting centrifugal forces bring you upright again.
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Sam.Spoons View Drop Down
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Posts: 3398 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Sam.Spoons Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Sep 17 at 1:25pm
https://www.roostersailing.com/blog/boat-whisperer-talks-2/

He bears away while throwing himself across the boat.........


Edited by Sam.Spoons - 19 Sep 17 at 1:42pm
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Posts: 288 		Post Options Post Options   Quote bustinben Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Sep 17 at 3:01pm
Originally posted by Sam.Spoons

'torquing' (WTF that is) must make the boat go faster or they wouldn't bother doing it

42.1 Basic Rule

Except when permitted in rule 42.3 or 45, a boat shall compete by using only the wind and water to increase, maintain or decrease her speed. Her crew may adjust the trim of sails and hull, and perform other acts of seamanship, but shall not otherwise move their bodies to propel the boat. 


I think the on the water juries you get at laser events, who are themselves usually IJ's or NJ's, probably have a good idea of what is and isn't allowed within the rules.  The SI's usually make this completely rock solid as there is no right to redress/protest an on the water R42 call, so if a juror thinks it's legal, it's legal, and if they think it's not legal, it's not legal.

So perhaps the people you think are cheating are actually just doing it right...?

P.S Torquing is adjusting the trim (the pitch, actually) of the hull forcefully as it goes over the crest of a wave so that it stays in smooth contact with the water rather than slamming and allows the boat to shoot down the back of the wave rather than just stopping.  It's clearly within the definition you've posted.


Edited by bustinben - 19 Sep 17 at 3:06pm
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