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fab100 View Drop Down
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Posts: 1005 		Post Options Post Options   Quote fab100 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Here's an interesting one..
    Posted: 22 Aug 17 at 10:37pm
I'd suggest the key in situations like this (we get them all the time) is anticipation and communication. There's usually a way to cross eachother without too much inconvenience and Murphy's Law says that's often the inverse of what the rules want.

In the same way that, when beating on starboard, it is often best to wave the port tacker on and duck them, a quick chat and compromise by both parties can minimise the interference with each other's race. What goes around, comes around and all that. The jobsworth attitude of "i know my rights" is for losers.
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Posts: 6496 		Post Options Post Options   Quote iGRF Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Aug 17 at 9:13am
Yep fully agree with that sentiment, but it helps to know what should happen according to rules, amazing after 40 odd years you can still come up against stuff you haven't experienced before, too many triangle sausages and box courses I guess.

Edited by iGRF - 23 Aug 17 at 9:14am
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Fatboi View Drop Down
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Posts: 189 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Fatboi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Aug 17 at 10:37am
I think looking at it very simply that GRF, you would be in the wrong. Not intentionally, but accidentally.

The solo sailing downwind has every right to sail his angle or course. He does not have to assume that you are going to tack around the mark, then head off on your reach, so does not have to allow for this on his course. You could be heading anywhere and he doesn't have to assume that is your mark, especially with a tricky course!

Even if it was the other way around and you had tacked onto starboard, he would not have to assume or plan that you are going to do this and you would have to prove that you gave them enough room to keep clear (Usually hailing early and clearly of what you intend to do is fine to prove this).

I guess the solution is that before we go for a manure, we have a good look around as best as possible to see whats coming. 
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Posts: 1005 		Post Options Post Options   Quote fab100 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Aug 17 at 10:56am
Originally posted by iGRF

Yep fully agree with that sentiment

who are you and how did you hack iGRF's account  LOL
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Posts: 6496 		Post Options Post Options   Quote iGRF Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Aug 17 at 11:47am
Originally posted by Fatboi

I think looking at it very simply that GRF, you would be in the wrong.

At the lake the very fact I'm on the water I'm in the wrong, if it's not rule 42 it'll generally be 69 is it, the 'inappropriate conduct' no mooning the kids rule
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Brass View Drop Down
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Posts: 1146 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Aug 17 at 11:49am
Originally posted by Fatboi

Even if it was the other way around and you had tacked onto starboard, he would not have to assume or plan that you are going to do this and you would have to prove that you gave them enough room to keep clear (Usually hailing early and clearly of what you intend to do is fine to prove this).
Where on earth did you get this from?

'Opportunity' was deleted from the rules in the 1995 rewrite (along with the general requirements for hailing in what used to be rule 32.2), specifically to remove this line of argument.

A boat is judged by what it does not what it says.

An obligation to keep clear arises when the transition occurs and not before, and until the obligation to keep clear kicks in, the other boat is neither required nor expected to take any action whatsoever.
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Posts: 189 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Fatboi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Aug 17 at 1:39pm
Opportunity wasnt mentioned. 

It was from sitting in a protest room at the RYA ET finals this year as a coach for the weekend.

There was an incident coming into a windward mark, where 2 boats were coming on on port to a windward mark. The inside boat did not hail for room and then at the last min made a stbd boat tack to avoid.

He protested the boat outside him, saying it should have given him room. 

The jury found the outside boat did not have to anticipate his actions, to avoid a stbd boat by bearing away to give them room to avoid, as it could have tacked and by hailing very late, then the outside boat did not have enough room (time) to make that space available.

By not hailing early and clearly, they said that the outside boat did not have to anticipate your actions and therefore he was not entitled to duck as there was another escape route. 

I just applied the fact that they did not have to anticipate any change until it had happened and that hailing helps to prove you have made someone aware. This is a way to try and make clear what you are going to do, so that someone has room to avoid early and to try and prevent a situation.
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Posts: 1146 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Aug 17 at 3:14pm
Originally posted by Fatboi

Opportunity wasnt mentioned. 

It was from sitting in a protest room at the RYA ET finals this year as a coach for the weekend.

There was an incident coming into a windward mark, where 2 boats were coming on on port to a windward mark. The inside boat did not hail for room and then at the last min made a stbd boat tack to avoid.

He protested the boat outside him, saying it should have given him room. 

The jury found the outside boat did not have to anticipate his actions, to avoid a stbd boat by bearing away to give them room to avoid, as it could have tacked and by hailing very late, then the outside boat did not have enough room (time) to make that space available.

By not hailing early and clearly, they said that the outside boat did not have to anticipate your actions and therefore he was not entitled to duck as there was another escape route. 

I just applied the fact that they did not have to anticipate any change until it had happened and that hailing helps to prove you have made someone aware. This is a way to try and make clear what you are going to do, so that someone has room to avoid early and to try and prevent a situation.

That sounds very like the protest committee's decision in Case 11

Can you provide a copy/link to the written protest decision?
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Posts: 189 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Fatboi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Aug 17 at 3:48pm
I would have no idea on where to find that if I am honest.

Room was only hailed right at the last second, so slightly different as to that case. Especially as when it was called the leeward boat couldn't give enough room for them to keep clear, differently to the case you have shown where they could very easily, they just didn't respond. I am surprised in that case PL didn't get binned straight away...

I think the safest and best approach is to hail early, then there is more chance that both boats can avoid without messing each other up and sail cleaner.
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Posts: 1146 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Aug 17 at 11:32pm
Originally posted by Fatboi

Room was only hailed right at the last second, so slightly different as to that case.

My problem is why anyone would think that a hail was relevant to boat's entitlements under rule 19.2 at all.

CASE 41
... There is no obligation to hail for room at an obstruction, but it is prudent to do so.

Especially as when it was called the leeward boat couldn't give enough room for them to keep clear,

So you are saying that the port leeward boat was unable to give the room required by rule 19, presumably because of other oncoming starboard tack boats?

...
I think the safest and best approach is to hail early, then there is more chance that both boats can avoid without messing each other up and sail cleaner.

Indeed, but the rules don't require boats to do what is safest and best:  they merely require that boats comply with the rules.
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