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iGRF
Really should get out more Joined: 07 Mar 11 Location: Hythe Online Status: Offline Posts: 6496 |
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Topic: Here's an interesting one.. Posted: 21 Aug 17 at 1:16pm |
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This sunday on the lake which has marks scattered around the periphery, but with a couple midway up so the course involves a beat to two right upwind, then a long end to end run, a beat halfway back up then reach back a bit off to the right then a beat through the start gate and back off up to the two top marks again. Difficult to describe all this but it's a bit puffy and shifty but the downwind leg you have the entire width of the lake to gybe on the shifts or spot gusts and try to use them downwind, so the course is from a buoy right in the top left corner of the lake right down to a buoy in the bottom right hand corner.
Half way back up there is a windward mark I'm approaching on starboard and will have to tack to leave it to Port then set off on a reach at an angle of say 90 degrees to the mean course from top to bottom. Now a Solo is coming downwind on it's way to the bottom mark and as I tack to round the buoy I notice it's suddenly a bit closer than I'd comfortably like to see it, it is aiming right at the mark I'm about to round, I'm ahead, the Solo has to continue further downwind and round the mark previous and then come back up wind, I'm chasing my fellow Solutioneer and he's getting away in the same puff. Now having tacked and midway through the bear off the Solo hails starboard and is getting very close yet to clear this mark he would have to bear away and to avoid it harden up, quite why he's going anywhere near it is beyond me it's not exactly on the rhumb line to the correct course to the mark he's supposed to be headed but who knows maybe a shift took him that way although I doubt the solo is the sort of boat that benefits from sailing hot angles, but he's there and hailing.. So in dashing across his bows rounding the buoy onto my leg, I am presumably breaking the rules, no collision did occur and a bit of moaning took place on the shore and it is Port starboard since I had to tack onto Port to round my mark, had I hesitated and done nothing it also could have caused a collision so I could call Col regs, could I have hardened back up tacked off, I'm not sure, it was that close... So what does the team think... Edited by iGRF - 21 Aug 17 at 1:25pm |
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Brass
Really should get out more Joined: 24 Mar 08 Location: Australia Online Status: Offline Posts: 1146 |
Post Options Quote Reply Posted: 21 Aug 17 at 1:43pm | |
If the Solo changed course, and needed to do so to avoid you any time after you passed head to wind tacking from starboard to port, you did not keep clear and broke either rule 13 or 10.
If the Solo, on a different leg to you, was not sailing her proper course and she 'interfered' with you, and it was reasonably possible for her not to do so, she broke rule 24.2. If the Solo broke rule 24.2 and in doing so, compelled you to break rule 10 or 13, you are exonerated by rule 64.1( a ).
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iGRF
Really should get out more Joined: 07 Mar 11 Location: Hythe Online Status: Offline Posts: 6496 |
Post Options Quote Reply Posted: 21 Aug 17 at 4:44pm | |
OMG there's a protest room and a half...
My assertion would be that the mark I was rounding was not in anyway part of the course to the mark he was headed, nor would the race team have set it as such and anyone in their right mind knowing windward boats would be rounding it should be giving it a wide berth. But he's perfectly free presumably to follow downwind shifts and zig zag, so how does 'proper course' stand up to that? I should have worked out which side of the mark he'd likely pass whilst still on starboard, before I tacked, like all these things nothing done deliberately here, just heat of the race and focus on the mark not anything upwind likely to be coming down to nail you. Do marks that carry zones that apply to those using them also apply to those whilst not on that particular leg, and would be perfectly able to stay well clear? If not, logic would say they should. |
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Brass
Really should get out more Joined: 24 Mar 08 Location: Australia Online Status: Offline Posts: 1146 |
Post Options Quote Reply Posted: 22 Aug 17 at 1:00am | |
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iGRF
Really should get out more Joined: 07 Mar 11 Location: Hythe Online Status: Offline Posts: 6496 |
Post Options Quote Reply Posted: 22 Aug 17 at 12:29pm | |
Well that doesn't exactly tie in with 'proper course' does it? Then again what could be described as 'proper course' for say a fleet of 49ers on a dead run, other than deliberately sailing someone below a lay line for advantage. So I wonder are there definitions to describe 'proper' course when discussing a Solo and would they be different for say a 49er? Then, throw a mark of the next leg of the course in the mix that is way off to the left of the direct line between windward and leeward and has boats rounding it on a windward leg as the tailenders are still going downwind from a point some way above. Is there a proper course defined that is suitable for all? Just asking at this point. Edited by iGRF - 22 Aug 17 at 12:30pm |
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JimC
Really should get out more Joined: 17 May 04 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 6648 |
Post Options Quote Reply Posted: 22 Aug 17 at 1:16pm | |
There is no single proper course, nor should there be. And if a boat goes wandering round the ocean at random - perhaps making a mistake and sailing to the wrong mark - then the best course from that wrong point to the next mark becomes a proper course, even though its nothing like the best course for her to have sailed overall. I'm not quite sure how precisely this ties up with 24 though.
There are some hypotheticals for RRS 24 in case 126, but they are all concerned with one boat luffing another, not two boats whose paths happen to cross. Two boats on the same leg sailing near one another may have different proper courses (Case 14). There is also no rule that requires a boat to sail a proper course (Case 9). A boat’s proper course at any moment depends on the existing conditions. Some of those conditions are the wind strength and direction, the pattern of gusts and lulls in the wind, the waves, the current, and the physical characteristics of the boat’s hull and equipment, including the sails she is using. (Case 134) |
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iGRF
Really should get out more Joined: 07 Mar 11 Location: Hythe Online Status: Offline Posts: 6496 |
Post Options Quote Reply Posted: 22 Aug 17 at 1:59pm | |
Well that's not my interpretation as far as I can recall the proper course is to do with finishing the race at the earliest opportunity. i.e. not deviating for 'random' reasons, like deliberately attempting a diversion to thwart a competitor with a needless starboard call, or luffing them over the horizon - I could be wrong of course, maybe I'll look it up and refresh my memory. Edited by iGRF - 22 Aug 17 at 1:59pm |
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Brass
Really should get out more Joined: 24 Mar 08 Location: Australia Online Status: Offline Posts: 1146 |
Post Options Quote Reply Posted: 22 Aug 17 at 2:38pm | |
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JimC
Really should get out more Joined: 17 May 04 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 6648 |
Post Options Quote Reply Posted: 22 Aug 17 at 2:55pm | |
well lets take an example. Supposing boat A has luffed boat B into the next county, and is 100 yards upwind of the next mark, but the overlap got broken and made again and now boat A may not sail above her proper course. Is her proper course a line from where she is now to the next mark, or is it a line somewhere 100 yards downwind?
I'm confident that means the course the boat would sail to finish as soon as possible *from where she is now*, otherwise you get the nonsense in my example above, but there is a small question mark in my mind as regards RRS24. I think though I were on a PC, and found that the boat being protested had carefully sailed herself into a position where she could impede a boat on another leg without diverting from what was now a proper course I'd vote to DSQ then under RRS24/RRS2 and rely on the Appeals folk to correct the decision if it was wrong. In your case though it doesn't sound as if the other boat was trying to slow you up, just that they didn't want you slowing them up. Edited by JimC - 22 Aug 17 at 2:55pm |
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iGRF
Really should get out more Joined: 07 Mar 11 Location: Hythe Online Status: Offline Posts: 6496 |
Post Options Quote Reply Posted: 22 Aug 17 at 3:13pm | |
More like they were in abject terror at the gust and didn't want to be where they were anyway.
It's always been an ambiguous term, the proper course I might take will be different to others or I wouldn't win or lose would I? If we all sailed the 'poper course' according to that term of reference we'd all arrive at the finish line together. Edited by iGRF - 22 Aug 17 at 3:16pm |
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