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62.1A Requesting redress |
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ClubRacer
Far too distracted from work Joined: 26 Sep 15 Online Status: Offline Posts: 210 |
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Topic: 62.1A Requesting redress Posted: 12 May 17 at 9:59am |
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62 REDRESS
62.1 A request for redress or a protest committee’s decision to consider
redress shall be based on a claim or possibility that a boat’s score or
place in a race or series has been or may be, through no fault of her
own, made significantly worse by (a) an improper action or omission of the race committee, protest
committee, organizing authority or technical committee for the
event, but not by a protest committee decision when the boat
was a party to the hearing; Scenario Mornings racing run no issues with a dropping tide. As the tide goes out it leaves a big sandbank which goes out a long way. The sailors go onto the water and sit bobbing about expecting the course to be moved out to sea. It is, course is laid and they go into sequence the boats make their way to the start line back inshore un-aware of insufficient water until the sequence is already half way in. Boat 1 runs aground and his rudder comes clean off the back of the boat and Boat 2 has to sail with the board half up to prevent running aground, this is over the full distance of the start line. Because of the issues with bottoming out boat 2 who has the biggest draft's start is compromised and every subsequent lap as the tide was continuing to drop would have to sail with the board up to prevent running aground, Is this an omission by the race committee to not lay the course with sufficient water for all boats to pass without grounding when sufficient water is readily available (the open sea) and would all effected boats have grounds for a redress under 62.1A
Edited by ClubRacer - 12 May 17 at 10:01am |
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Brass
Really should get out more Joined: 24 Mar 08 Location: Australia Online Status: Offline Posts: 1146 |
Post Options Quote Reply Posted: 12 May 17 at 12:54pm | ||
RYA Appeal 2016/3 Rule 62.1(a) Redress Setting a course within a race area that includes known shallow area(s) is not normally an improper action of the race committee. SUMMARY OF THE FACTS In race 3 of the Fast 40+ class in the Vice Admiral’s Cup, the race committee set a course which included a leg which would take the fleet over the East Knoll Bank. Whilst on this leg, Otra Vez, Jubilee and Invictus all ran aground before continuing in the race and finishing. Otra Vez requested redress, asserting that the course passed over a shallow that the deeper draft boats could not clear but which the boats with lesser draft could pass over. The request was upheld, and the race committee then requested redress for Jubilee and Invictus which was also granted. These boats were given average points for all races for the first two days of racing excluding race 3. The race committee appealed the decision because they believed that the boats concerned would have had sufficient electronic navigation aids, including depth sounders, and were able to avoid a known navigational hazard. DECISION The appeal is upheld. Otra Vez, Jubilee and Invictus are not entitled to redress and are to be scored in their original finishing places in race 3. Rule 62 has three non-exclusive requirements for redress to be granted: the possibility that a boat’s score has been or may be made significantly worse; and, through no fault of her own; and, in this case, by an improper action or omission of the race committee. There is no evidence to suggest that the boats could not have sailed the course without going aground, as did other boats, and therefore they cannot claim their groundings to have been through no fault of their own. Setting a race course that runs across or alongside a known shallow area to which some boats will be able to sail closer than others because of their shallower draft is not normally an improper action of the race committee.
Edited by Brass - 12 May 17 at 12:55pm |
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jeffers
Really should get out more Joined: 29 Mar 04 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 3048 |
Post Options Quote Reply Posted: 12 May 17 at 3:11pm | ||
Agreed for boats that have depth sounders Brass but this sounds like a dinghy race to me. Not many dinghies have depth sounding equipment on board so may not have known about the depth issue until they hit bottom.
The question would hinge on if all the boats were aware of the local under water geography. If an Open or a Nationals people might not know about the depth at the current state of the tide. If a local club race then everyone should be aware.
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Paul
---------------------- D-Zero GBR 74 |
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ClubRacer
Far too distracted from work Joined: 26 Sep 15 Online Status: Offline Posts: 210 |
Post Options Quote Reply Posted: 12 May 17 at 4:11pm | ||
All were aware but the issue was the course was laid in such a way that you couldn't avoid the shallow waters without missing a mark out
I would also say the 3 criteria were met: the possibility that a boat’s score has been or may be made significantly worse; and, through no fault of her own; and, in this case, by an improper action or omission of the race committee Edited by ClubRacer - 12 May 17 at 5:29pm |
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Rupert
Really should get out more Joined: 11 Aug 04 Location: Whitefriars sc Online Status: Offline Posts: 8956 |
Post Options Quote Reply Posted: 12 May 17 at 9:24pm | ||
Did no about redress, sounds like the RO is a complete pillock.
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JimC
Really should get out more Joined: 17 May 04 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 6649 |
Post Options Quote Reply Posted: 12 May 17 at 9:41pm | ||
Its harsh, but there is a general principle that the skipper is in charge of the boat and is his fault if he/she runs aground. Consider, if you change that at all you could get insurance companies coming after the RC.
In that circumstance perhaps the best thing to do would be to write politely to the RC to the effect that the fairness of the racing was severely affected, and would they like to consider abandoning the race. |
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ClubRacer
Far too distracted from work Joined: 26 Sep 15 Online Status: Offline Posts: 210 |
Post Options Quote Reply Posted: 12 May 17 at 10:41pm | ||
Being it a club race the RO was going by the safety boats decision to lay the course there and after telling the safety boat with a minute to go im on the bottom and with another boat missing a rudder they did nothing to communicate that with the RO so I wouldn't go as far as call him the pillock
As far as abandoning the race, I was under the impression its the PC's decision to do that based on my request for redress to stop the RO from being influenced by certain individuals? I do like that it actually prevents insurance from chasing RC's. Im no expert on insurance claims using protest information but surely they're completely final as to who's to blame as anyone could see from my protest that any damage would have been solely my fault for knowing there is insufficient water and going there anyway but from a fair racing point of view i had no choice and took the chance
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Brass
Really should get out more Joined: 24 Mar 08 Location: Australia Online Status: Offline Posts: 1146 |
Post Options Quote Reply Posted: 12 May 17 at 10:55pm | ||
Pretty much. I'd be inclined to say that it depends on whether or not the action of the race committee was improper. I wouldn't be too harsh about fault of her own. Maybe actually hitting the bank was fault of her own, but having to sail over the bank with board up gives rise to the possibility or actuality of a boat's score being worsened, and there's no fault of hers in that.
I agree that the Appeal mentions depth sounders, but on a dinghy you should be able to look over the side and see whether you are on a bank or not. I'm not sure that knowledge of the competitors is relevant to whether the action of the race committee was improper. In general I'd say a race committee has no business relying on 'what everybody around her knows'.
OK, here's where we can start distinguishing this scenario from Appeal 2016/3 I think it's that boats entitled to redress: race abandoned. In this case there's nothing that can be done to save the race. Rather than let this go to the protest committee, the race committee:
If I was requesting redress, I'd be conveniently forgetting Appeal 2016/3, and citing Appeal 1989/10. |
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Brass
Really should get out more Joined: 24 Mar 08 Location: Australia Online Status: Offline Posts: 1146 |
Post Options Quote Reply Posted: 12 May 17 at 11:23pm | ||
C'mon: the race officer is responsible for all the actions of various race officials on the day. If the race officer couldn't rely on the mark-boat to lay a sensible line, then the race officer should have given more detailed instructions and supervised more closely. If the first groundings happened about the start, the race officer should have quickly postponed or abandoned and reset the course. And the race officer damn well should have seen the problems happening.
See my previous post. Protest committee can abandon a race by way of redress once they conclude that a boat is entitled to redress (rules 62.1 and 64.2). Race committee can abandon a race, without going near the protest committee under rule 32.1.
Protest hearings do nothing more than decide what boats broke what rules (plus exoneration). They are about Places in Races. They do NOT address what 'caused' an incident or who was to 'blame' Rule 67 is designed to keep protest committees away from these problems
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ClubRacer
Far too distracted from work Joined: 26 Sep 15 Online Status: Offline Posts: 210 |
Post Options Quote Reply Posted: 12 May 17 at 11:28pm | ||
perfect cheers Brass
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