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Frankenboat - what's yours?

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Rupert View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Rupert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 May 18 at 7:18am
Originally posted by zippyRN



Originally posted by ttc546

†Your interpretation of this is complete bollox. Show me a dinghy club that exhibits racism. Show me a dinghy club that discriminates against opposite gender. The issue is far more complex than your simplistic view.

if anyone is displaying a simplsitic view it;s the† †'white middle'† when these topics come up -† as demonstrated by the denial of the problems, the faux† offence at† it being pointed out that those who have† †the major privileges† often have no conception of† privilege† and it;s† impact†



Privilege is the same as racism? I don't think so. I'd say it does poor service to both issues.

Understanding that being brought up with a support network that was able to, say, send you to a recent school, maybe get some tutoring to ensure the grades for a decent university, have some contacts for a start on the employment ladder gives you things many do not have is important. I'm sure some in that position think they did it all without help, and see those without he same opportunities as lazy or stupid. Many don't, too.

It may also be true that many in the UK without those opportunities are from minority backgrounds. It doesn't mean that privilege and racism are the same.

Lots of privileged people in sailing, that is undoubtedly true.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Cirrus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 May 18 at 8:40am

Now perhaps it is time to move on ..... or far better still back to GRF's conspiracy theories if you really all want a bit of subject  diversion.   Much more entertaining surely ....

A bit of supporting evidence would be good of course.   Just one tiny teeny little bit even.  Now I know this could just prove to be a bit of a tough call Ė along with proving that the planet is ultimately run by lizards, Elvis really works in a fish and chips emporium in Hull, the moon landings were of course fake and alien abduction is surprisingly most common in deepest Kent.

But we all know these Ďfactsí to be true as well donít we .. and 'they' would try and deny it .... of course they would. Wink

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Post Options Post Options   Quote johnr Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 May 18 at 8:46am
Originally posted by turnturtle

ďA range of evidence suggests about three-quarters of regular dedicated water sports participants are likely to be men aged 18 to 60 years. Over 60% of participants in inland water-based sport and recreation are from social groups A, B, and C1, although these groups comprise less than 50% of the UK population.Ē

The stats donít lie... given the lack of participation by women and ethnic minorities, itís pretty clear the sport has institutional racism and gender inequality issues, even if individual participants feel that they are not racist or sexist.

http://randd.defra.gov.uk/Document.aspx?Document=WC01001_1350_FRP.pdf



To claim a single or group of sailing clubs have institutional racism and/or gender inequality issues I would be looking for more than stats for this. I would be looking for specific instances and then the best way of dealing with this is to drive it out by shining a light on it. I have grown up in sailing clubs where I have never seen direct racism and if I had I would have called out the individual aggressively. Where chauvinism existed then this got a pretty rough ride as guess what well off women don't like taking sh*t and the well educated younger females of the world who inhabit these clubs are even less likely to tolerate this.

It is important to remember that just because large sections of society are not interested in joining a sailing club this is not down to the sailing clubs themselves. For the cost of a entry level boat and membership you can buy an iphone, high end clothes and go to the gym. If you club has a problem with gender inequality and racism then address the issue at hand and stop telling me and my other fellow sailors that we are the problem. Get yourself off to a hockey or netball forum and you can talk about how there are too many white women and this is proof of racism and gender inequality.      
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Post Options Post Options   Quote turnturtle Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 May 18 at 9:22am
I don't think either hockey or netball would claim they are not suffering from institutional gender inequality... FFS both are promoted heavily as 'girls sports' at schools throughout the UK.

On the race issue, well I guess that as PE is a compulsory part of the National Curriculum, any school offering either of those sports can cover off any bias levied at introductory levels.

So back to sailing - faux offence at someone pointing out the bleeding obvious, even when done tongue in cheek (with a duff report on fishing) to ridicule other over the top caricaturing in this thread, seems a little defensive.  

 If you've never experienced racism/xenophobia, or sexism in a sailing club, or among the banter in some sailing club bars, then frankly you're not very observant.  Do I want to dwell on it, or cite examples?  No... what's the point, a) it will fall on deaf ears and b) what possible bloody difference would it make???
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Post Options Post Options   Quote H2 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 May 18 at 9:25am
Did the trolls just out-troll themselves and have people nibble on their trollingness?? This forum just hit a new level of weird
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Post Options Post Options   Quote turnturtle Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 May 18 at 9:41am
Originally posted by H2

This forum just hit a new level of weird

weird?  No

uncomfortable?  Yes

This is because despite the trolling nature of intention, there is more than a grain of truth in the assumption that dinghy sailing does suffer from ethnic, gender and socio-economic bias in participation.  

 Even in Johnr's passionate defensive above, he makes an assumption around the class status of women who frequent sailing clubs...  

Originally posted by johnr

Where chauvinism existed then this got a pretty rough ride as guess what well off women don't like taking sh*t and the well educated younger females of the world who inhabit these clubs are even less likely to tolerate this.  

And he's not wrong of course.  I guess "class bias" is easier to digest than gender or ethnicity.


Edited by turnturtle - 14 May 18 at 9:42am
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Noah Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 May 18 at 10:43am
Any sport or pastime appeals to different sections of society. That's not bias, any-ism, prejudice or any other detrimental attribute. It's just the way life is. Hockey / Netball / Synchro swimming --> mainly female; Rugby / Football / Baseball --> mainly male; Boxing / Basketball --> mainly non-Caucasian males?

We are all different and all any sport can do is ensure that it is as open as possible to new entrants. I have only come across one instance of racism in a sailing club (and that wasn't first hand, and it was by one individual rather than the club as an entity). It led to deep reflection and a fairly seismic change within the organisation.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote turnturtle Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 May 18 at 11:26am
By the nature of it, it is participation bias... I would suggest this is because sailing is predominantly handed down generationally within family units, rather than attracting new entrants at various stages of their lives.  In the UK it rarely benefits from school-based introductions - outside of the private sector anyway. 

Whether any of us want to attribute a negative or pejorative connotation to this bias and more importantly, whether any organising authority want to address this bias is another discussion entirely.  One I'm not really comfortable entering on a public forum.

I have been guilty in this thread of using the word "issue" when discussing racial observations .... in reality I don't perceive there to be an issue as such.  As you say, different pastimes appeal to different sections of society.   But I cannot deny there is a participation bias if we are being totally honest with ourselves.   Worth noting, In my opinion, acknowledging an existence of bias and doing nothing about changing it, does NOT fundamentally make someone, or anyone club, racist.

Where I do have a bit more thoughts (mixed opinions too), is gender inequality.  I think it's strange that in the 21st Century sailing clubs needs to promote single sex sessions - Women on the Water as they have become known.  

I totally RESPECT women taking ownership over these sessions and getting on the water as they see fit.   I'm just curious as to why they are necessary and what environment the blokes were creating in the first place that these women feel the need for them?  It's a genuine question - as a dad of two girls, I can't imagine introducing them to a sport where they will want segregation by gender in the future.  It's alien to every other aspect of how we are parenting them.  

I also think it's missing a trick.... if the reason is because of testosterone fuelled aggressive racing, then surely there are plenty of guys who don't want that either?  I'm open minded on answers to this, as stated, have very mixed opinions on it given I'd always believed sailing was relatively gender neutral growing up.          
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Post Options Post Options   Quote iGRF Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 May 18 at 12:06pm
What all this has got to do with Frankenboats I've no idea, I don't care what your ethnic background is and I can count amongst my son in laws and would be son in laws as diverse a background as anyone could imagine and I've tried to get them sailing but so far failed other than one pathetic attempt when they both put their wetsuits on back to front, city boys that most of them are. They took a trip out in a Vision found it brain bleedingly boring and I've never bothered to try since, they've gone off SUP and Kitesurfing since. Now maybe if I'd had one of those new three hull foiling do dahs they might have been a little more enthralled, who knows, the moment has past. We have to accept, well I do, that we're not doing this for excitement, I do it because it tests my brain as well as providing light exercise and the reason we currently have the racial profile we have is because mostly you are all here because of your parents before you, or you went to posh schools or uni that had sailing as part of the PE available.

Dinghy sailing has long past the 'sport of the moment' appeal that likely would attract a wider more representative example of the current population, as for example does SUP, or Kite. My business these days has an incredible variety of un pronounceable surnames much much different from even 10 years ago, so they are out there, but like everyone else, sailing aint attracting them.

Edited by iGRF - 14 May 18 at 12:09pm
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Post Options Post Options   Quote davidyacht Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 May 18 at 12:19pm
Originally posted by turnturtle

By the nature of it, it is participation bias... I would suggest this is because sailing is predominantly handed down generationally within family units, rather than attracting new entrants at various stages of their lives. 

I suspect that this goes back to the boom times of the 60's and 70's, which may well have been less enlightened times (Life on Mars and the Sweeney)

Originally posted by turnturtle

In the UK it rarely benefits from school-based introductions - outside of the private sector anyway.

Highlights a whole issue that many of us cut our teeth in team racing, whether at Public School, or University, but no getting away from there being more ethnic bias back then

Originally posted by turnturtle

Whether any of us want to attribute a negative or pejorative connotation to this bias and more importantly, whether any organising authority want to address this bias is another discussion entirely.  One I'm not really comfortable entering on a public forum.

Best not to

Originally posted by turnturtle

I have been guilty in this thread of using the word "issue" when discussing racial observations .... in reality I don't perceive there to be an issue as such.  As you say, different pastimes appeal to different sections of society.   But I cannot deny there is a participation bias if we are being totally honest with ourselves.   Worth noting, In my opinion, acknowledging an existence of bias and doing nothing about changing it, does NOT fundamentally make someone, or anyone club, racist.

Agreed, and I hope that this is not the case

Originally posted by turnturtle

Where I do have a bit more thoughts (mixed opinions too), is gender inequality.  I think it's strange that in the 21st Century sailing clubs needs to promote single sex sessions - Women on the Water as they have become known.  

I totally RESPECT women taking ownership over these sessions and getting on the water as they see fit.   I'm just curious as to why they are necessary and what environment the blokes were creating in the first place that these women feel the need for them?  It's a genuine question - as a dad of two girls, I can't imagine introducing them to a sport where they will want segregation by gender in the future.  It's alien to every other aspect of how we are parenting them.

I am really intrigued by this point ... we have a very successful (well as I see it) Women on the Water program ... I stand to be castigated, but as I see it, it is not intended to be competitive, though as competencies improve we see more of this group progressing into the weekend racing programme.  I don't see the problem with this single sex group (safety boats manned by men), I think it is great that participation in the sport is being expanded by such initiatives.

However if women wanted to bypass this group, there is nothing to stop them joining the tacing fleets.

Originally posted by turnturtle

I also think it's missing a trick.... if the reason is because of testosterone fuelled aggressive racing, then surely there are plenty of guys who don't want that either?  I'm open minded on answers to this, as stated, have very mixed opinions on it given I'd always believed sailing was relatively gender neutral growing up.          

IMO this may be your most relevant point, it must be very daunting to take up the sport and have to race against a load of grumpy mainly men who have been participating in the sport for 40 years, shouting at each other, quoting rules and invariably beating you ... I think that this is enough to scare most people off.  This is probably something that could and should be addressed to good effect.
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