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turnturtle View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote turnturtle Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 May 18 at 3:30pm
That is very true Jack, deliberate on my part... focusing on the gender bias over the racial one.  

I guess I see one as a real issue, whereas the other as an observable participation bias.  
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Post Options Post Options   Quote H2 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 May 18 at 3:26pm
On the racism question - over the years I have taken many of my Black and Asian friends sailing and most have given me the same feedback that they report feeling the cold in instances that I feel quite warm. I actually looked into this as part of a project at work and discovered that it is a scientific fact that people with heritage from warm countries have a much reduced ability to shut off blood flow to the capillaries that flow nearest the skin (these are called shunt valves) so whereas a white person can stop warm blood flowing closer to the skin a black or asian person's body lacks the biological ability to do the same resulting in greater heat loss. This is a reason cited in a number of studies for the lower than anticipated participation in a number of sports including skiing, surfing, canoeing, mountaineering etc. That does not mean that other factors are not in play in society that may have blocked these sections of society from our sport but it is a factor.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Jack Sparrow Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 May 18 at 3:18pm
Originally posted by turnturtle

Originally posted by davidyacht

Originally posted by turnturtle

Where I do have a bit more thoughts (mixed opinions too), is gender inequality.  I think it's strange that in the 21st Century sailing clubs needs to promote single sex sessions - Women on the Water as they have become known.  

I totally RESPECT women taking ownership over these sessions and getting on the water as they see fit.   I'm just curious as to why they are necessary and what environment the blokes were creating in the first place that these women feel the need for them?  It's a genuine question - as a dad of two girls, I can't imagine introducing them to a sport where they will want segregation by gender in the future.  It's alien to every other aspect of how we are parenting them.

I am really intrigued by this point ... we have a very successful (well as I see it) Women on the Water program ... I stand to be castigated, but as I see it, it is not intended to be competitive, though as competencies improve we see more of this group progressing into the weekend racing programme.  I don't see the problem with this single sex group (safety boats manned by men), I think it is great that participation in the sport is being expanded by such initiatives.
        

indeed- I agree, it is great to see participation expanded.  And I would re-state - total respect for the people (women) who have driven it forward.   But I do have a mixed/confused opinion on it....  merely from the point of view on what these sessions offer that clearly wasn't in place before and if actually there really is need for gender division to provision for what it offers.    

As just a passing example of gender bias, check out this picture from the front page rallying talent for sponsorship.... how many women do you see in the picture?  What message does this send to female athletes?  Do female athletes even care they are not 'represented' in this picture, or do they feel the men featured represent all sailors anyway?  Who knows....  


But I note you did not mention the fact that everyone was white
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Post Options Post Options   Quote turnturtle Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 May 18 at 1:35pm
Originally posted by davidyacht

Originally posted by turnturtle

Where I do have a bit more thoughts (mixed opinions too), is gender inequality.  I think it's strange that in the 21st Century sailing clubs needs to promote single sex sessions - Women on the Water as they have become known.  

I totally RESPECT women taking ownership over these sessions and getting on the water as they see fit.   I'm just curious as to why they are necessary and what environment the blokes were creating in the first place that these women feel the need for them?  It's a genuine question - as a dad of two girls, I can't imagine introducing them to a sport where they will want segregation by gender in the future.  It's alien to every other aspect of how we are parenting them.

I am really intrigued by this point ... we have a very successful (well as I see it) Women on the Water program ... I stand to be castigated, but as I see it, it is not intended to be competitive, though as competencies improve we see more of this group progressing into the weekend racing programme.  I don't see the problem with this single sex group (safety boats manned by men), I think it is great that participation in the sport is being expanded by such initiatives.
        

indeed- I agree, it is great to see participation expanded.  And I would re-state - total respect for the people (women) who have driven it forward.   But I do have a mixed/confused opinion on it....  merely from the point of view on what these sessions offer that clearly wasn't in place before and if actually there really is need for gender division to provision for what it offers.    

As just a passing example of gender bias, check out this picture from the front page rallying talent for sponsorship.... how many women do you see in the picture?  What message does this send to female athletes?  Do female athletes even care they are not 'represented' in this picture, or do they feel the men featured represent all sailors anyway?  Who knows....  



Edited by turnturtle - 14 May 18 at 2:04pm
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Post Options Post Options   Quote turnturtle Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 May 18 at 1:30pm
Originally posted by JimC

Clearly trolling is a sport open to all income groups, although I suspect, on the basis of minimal evidence and unjustifiable preconceptions, that it too probably has an educated middle class bias. Like racism though*, it probably knows no cultural barriers.  

unfortunately not... I do believe the rise in armed crime in inner city London, with an unfortunate racial undertone, has largely been blamed on the escalation of trolling on social media.


This little foray into the socio-economic characteristics of Royston Vasey SC and its wider identity politique, is on the other, just a distraction and extrapolation of the accusations of cheating and gerrymandering levelled by our dear friend and contributor, iGRF....  
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Post Options Post Options   Quote 423zero Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 May 18 at 12:27pm
Ultimate thread drift
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Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 May 18 at 12:19pm
I do find all this rather amusing coming from TT who clearly possesses a much greater disposable income than I have ever enjoyed. Clearly trolling is a sport open to all income groups, although I suspect, on the basis of minimal evidence and unjustifiable preconceptions, that it too probably has an educated middle class bias. Like racism though*, it probably knows no cultural barriers.


*if you've ever had the dubious task of monitoring an email content checking system, you know that racism does indeed know no barriers, and its rather amusing how quickly a new racist joke is circulated with only the names changed.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote davidyacht Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 May 18 at 12:19pm
Originally posted by turnturtle

By the nature of it, it is participation bias... I would suggest this is because sailing is predominantly handed down generationally within family units, rather than attracting new entrants at various stages of their lives. 

I suspect that this goes back to the boom times of the 60's and 70's, which may well have been less enlightened times (Life on Mars and the Sweeney)

Originally posted by turnturtle

In the UK it rarely benefits from school-based introductions - outside of the private sector anyway.

Highlights a whole issue that many of us cut our teeth in team racing, whether at Public School, or University, but no getting away from there being more ethnic bias back then

Originally posted by turnturtle

Whether any of us want to attribute a negative or pejorative connotation to this bias and more importantly, whether any organising authority want to address this bias is another discussion entirely.  One I'm not really comfortable entering on a public forum.

Best not to

Originally posted by turnturtle

I have been guilty in this thread of using the word "issue" when discussing racial observations .... in reality I don't perceive there to be an issue as such.  As you say, different pastimes appeal to different sections of society.   But I cannot deny there is a participation bias if we are being totally honest with ourselves.   Worth noting, In my opinion, acknowledging an existence of bias and doing nothing about changing it, does NOT fundamentally make someone, or anyone club, racist.

Agreed, and I hope that this is not the case

Originally posted by turnturtle

Where I do have a bit more thoughts (mixed opinions too), is gender inequality.  I think it's strange that in the 21st Century sailing clubs needs to promote single sex sessions - Women on the Water as they have become known.  

I totally RESPECT women taking ownership over these sessions and getting on the water as they see fit.   I'm just curious as to why they are necessary and what environment the blokes were creating in the first place that these women feel the need for them?  It's a genuine question - as a dad of two girls, I can't imagine introducing them to a sport where they will want segregation by gender in the future.  It's alien to every other aspect of how we are parenting them.

I am really intrigued by this point ... we have a very successful (well as I see it) Women on the Water program ... I stand to be castigated, but as I see it, it is not intended to be competitive, though as competencies improve we see more of this group progressing into the weekend racing programme.  I don't see the problem with this single sex group (safety boats manned by men), I think it is great that participation in the sport is being expanded by such initiatives.

However if women wanted to bypass this group, there is nothing to stop them joining the tacing fleets.

Originally posted by turnturtle

I also think it's missing a trick.... if the reason is because of testosterone fuelled aggressive racing, then surely there are plenty of guys who don't want that either?  I'm open minded on answers to this, as stated, have very mixed opinions on it given I'd always believed sailing was relatively gender neutral growing up.          

IMO this may be your most relevant point, it must be very daunting to take up the sport and have to race against a load of grumpy mainly men who have been participating in the sport for 40 years, shouting at each other, quoting rules and invariably beating you ... I think that this is enough to scare most people off.  This is probably something that could and should be addressed to good effect.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote iGRF Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 May 18 at 12:06pm
What all this has got to do with Frankenboats I've no idea, I don't care what your ethnic background is and I can count amongst my son in laws and would be son in laws as diverse a background as anyone could imagine and I've tried to get them sailing but so far failed other than one pathetic attempt when they both put their wetsuits on back to front, city boys that most of them are. They took a trip out in a Vision found it brain bleedingly boring and I've never bothered to try since, they've gone off SUP and Kitesurfing since. Now maybe if I'd had one of those new three hull foiling do dahs they might have been a little more enthralled, who knows, the moment has past. We have to accept, well I do, that we're not doing this for excitement, I do it because it tests my brain as well as providing light exercise and the reason we currently have the racial profile we have is because mostly you are all here because of your parents before you, or you went to posh schools or uni that had sailing as part of the PE available.

Dinghy sailing has long past the 'sport of the moment' appeal that likely would attract a wider more representative example of the current population, as for example does SUP, or Kite. My business these days has an incredible variety of un pronounceable surnames much much different from even 10 years ago, so they are out there, but like everyone else, sailing aint attracting them.

Edited by iGRF - 14 May 18 at 12:09pm
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Post Options Post Options   Quote turnturtle Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 May 18 at 11:26am
By the nature of it, it is participation bias... I would suggest this is because sailing is predominantly handed down generationally within family units, rather than attracting new entrants at various stages of their lives.  In the UK it rarely benefits from school-based introductions - outside of the private sector anyway. 

Whether any of us want to attribute a negative or pejorative connotation to this bias and more importantly, whether any organising authority want to address this bias is another discussion entirely.  One I'm not really comfortable entering on a public forum.

I have been guilty in this thread of using the word "issue" when discussing racial observations .... in reality I don't perceive there to be an issue as such.  As you say, different pastimes appeal to different sections of society.   But I cannot deny there is a participation bias if we are being totally honest with ourselves.   Worth noting, In my opinion, acknowledging an existence of bias and doing nothing about changing it, does NOT fundamentally make someone, or anyone club, racist.

Where I do have a bit more thoughts (mixed opinions too), is gender inequality.  I think it's strange that in the 21st Century sailing clubs needs to promote single sex sessions - Women on the Water as they have become known.  

I totally RESPECT women taking ownership over these sessions and getting on the water as they see fit.   I'm just curious as to why they are necessary and what environment the blokes were creating in the first place that these women feel the need for them?  It's a genuine question - as a dad of two girls, I can't imagine introducing them to a sport where they will want segregation by gender in the future.  It's alien to every other aspect of how we are parenting them.  

I also think it's missing a trick.... if the reason is because of testosterone fuelled aggressive racing, then surely there are plenty of guys who don't want that either?  I'm open minded on answers to this, as stated, have very mixed opinions on it given I'd always believed sailing was relatively gender neutral growing up.          
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